But if we do this, we usually reply to the comment on-blog telling the commenter that we edited their comment and why we edited it. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. On May 30, 2017 RC Sproul Jr appeared before Judge Frances C. Gull in Allen County Indiana Drug Court to determine his eligibility for the Drug Court Treatment Program. I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. @ Velour: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Even pastor Wade Burleson who has E-Church here on Sundays doesnt subscribe to that. He had a disease. I said to her When Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor, what I wouldnt have given for such a disease. Sproul: If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Years later when I was a senior dating an older guy (in his twenties, lol) who took me to a college party about an hour from home, I made him promise me that he would not add anything to my Coke. I think its a huge problem that he is still in ministry. I see that, Velour. Had therapy and continues to do so. Velour wrote: They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. Its not about hypocrisy, its about the fact that we all have feet of clay and yet strive to do what is right, stumbling as we keep walking. despite the nasty barbs. There was a need for push back, since in the beginning you never outlined your reasons supporting R.C. I've been listening to true crime lately and there is SO much 'this person probably murdered their wife but they plead down so they only got a year' and 'this person wasn't charged for rape about 5 times for lack of evidence and then oops, they turned out to be a serial killer and none of that was on file' stuff. If a person backslides then they teach this person never was a true believer really never given irresistible grace.. Rcjr had his license suspended for six months. Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. Im not sure about that. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. They do more harm than good. 5 comes to mind. 511 0 obj <> endobj 533 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[<9723A9CD413C4B2C92544032644E85B0>]/Index[511 35]/Info 510 0 R/Length 100/Prev 987638/Root 512 0 R/Size 546/Type/XRef/W[1 2 1]>>stream I also am of the opinion that alcohol does not change who a personal fundamentally is. RC Jr was also addicted to tobacco, in the form of an even nastier habit, chewing, but eventually gave it up. Pain is no fun and draining. : The Sprouls lived in an extremely rural town called Mendota. He is also charming, manipulative, an involved father and a liar. After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? He has used his position of authority and harmed people. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. Congratulations to your daughter and family, Darlene. Very well said. With the prevalence of addictions, including in women (and that includes older women), the solution in my opinion isnt to kick them out of the church but to come alongside them and get them (and their families) help. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. I never laughed so hard in my life as reading that book. However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. That is your point of contention, not mine. There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. I may or may not have had a glass of wine after reading this thread. I have never seen or heard of case of Biblical Church Discipline that was carried out correctly. So behind the times.). As the saying goes in rooms like Al-Anon, a 12-step program for the family and friends of alcoholics, I didnt cause it, I cant control it, and I cant cure it., Barbara Roberts wrote: Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. keggers). And wisdom to know the difference. Mifflintown, PA 17059. Hopefully they get to Al-Anon and counseling. This is probably the best option for all involved. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. My mother said He couldnt help it. I didnt say if they should be kicked out or not. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. Okrapod is a doctor I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. You and I dont have the compulsion to drink, so its easy for us to say just dont drink. But I know of many people including Christians who have fought that battle (alcoholism) mostly in secret. and me that we had a problem with the Bible. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. Im also responsible for furnishing Dee with the MADD letter. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jrs children still deal with today. Q. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? Velour wrote: One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. So I was only saying what the Bible says. We all toasted to the bride and groom with a glass of champagne. Is there still a scar? She had many other helpful friends, but the church provided a place of special care for all of them. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). ), Mae wrote: There just arent that many emotionally healthy churches who even know how to genuinely love sober people, let alone the chemically dependent ones. Hes got to want it for himself. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. ), seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping Why not? Like RC2, he drove around drunk with our grandkids in the car. Too. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. One may be a choice, the other, an illness. Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. It is a complex topic and there are no easy answers, as weve seen on this thread. . 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. Mr Sproul Jr has not reached the bottom. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. RC2 has not been a humble, exemplary church leader. Beakerj wrote: Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. This we can all agree on. Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. (Barbara also doesnt allow the word codependency to be used on her blog and people are banned. Because DUIs are manly That is also comparing apples to oranges. RC Sproul Jrs license was suspended for six months. If its 2 and 3 he is being monitored somewhat closely and I assume is less of a danger to society, at least on the road. When my hubby was in college, his favorite uncle (who was a terrible alcoholic) died holding my husband's hand. ( a few drug addicts too ) I have to confess, I am somewhat intolerant of their behaviors. We all deserve love. 4. 3. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: They display all of the signs.). She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. It would be nice if you acknowledge that. His alcoholism is one of the least of the familys concerns. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Some of us do know him, and some of us knew him far longer than you have. Sproul Jrs spiritually abusive treatment of church members and whole families. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. Gods Word says that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin (Rom. Often it is tried multiple times. Unfortunately, I dont have any chocolate in the house, sad face: . You want to see whence my fury? as opposed to their christian relatives who have been strapped with all manner of convoluted *& conjectured* shoulds and shouldnts. He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. But it should be tried. Do they criticize non-drinkers? The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. Hopefully an intervention can be done on Sproul 2 and his minor children can be removed from his care since he is a danger to them. Not everyone is helped through standard mental health professionals. It is criminal. Its just that the timeline suggests grief at the loss of his wife has something to do with why he started sinning that way. it did sound harsh, didnt it, sometimes getting angry is the first step out of depression . Our church told that churchs search committee *everything* that had gone on.and they still hired the guy. Probably the minute you think am I drinking too much? is a good time to cut back. My point was that RC Jr. appears to be / have been a controlling cult leader, which is similar to what your ex-pastor sounds like from what I remember reading. Clearly you didnt read my comment with any understanding of what I was saying. Were already all in agreement, Velour, about getting people with addictions into treatment. So please stop arguing where there is no dispute. Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists,. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. They used to believe that high power lines caused brain tumors. I have and it can be a beautiful thing. Leave him alone! Velour wrote: Or perhaps it is a reaction against that teaching. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. We agree on your closing statement, Velour. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. 3. Hurting people are not the only ones who hurt people. Welcome to TWW. You have a good heart. She was the widow of Robert C. Sproul Jr.; mother of Roberta S. (Frank) Shuck and Robert C. Sproul III; Grandmother of Sherrie and Robert Craig Sproul; Sister of Mrs. Arthur Gunther, John and Joseph Yardis. Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. I dont even think the sin leveler types would go with choices 1 or 3. As for my part, I have dropped it. I have no doubt that I have a guardian angel (maybe more than one!). Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. Good for him. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, And Im not starting. This is not cool. There are many lovely ones and I count several as close friends. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. It just sounds creepy to me. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is John Marshall Sproul, M.D., of Mercer Island, died suddenly October 6, 2018 at home. If he had then he probably wouldnt have just gotten off with a slap on the wrist. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. For R.C. That is an exaggeration and overstatement. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. Thanks for the help on fathers day it was very good to tell that story. Free Pass : Professional 501(c)3 Pastoral Improper Judgement Permit Provided? Ditto for medications, which may need to be changed to find the right one. They see insult where none was intended, and are quick to react and hurl barbs and insults in retaliation. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. ITs all the things! But a sex hook up account? from her years of alcohol abuse. Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. Earlier, I posted this comment on a FB page discussing this mess. However, this particular distortion of guilt feelings can be complicated since authentic guilt may occur even if a person drinks without ever becoming drunk. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? I have experience. Geeze Louise. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. Lea wrote: That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. I know someone who has been banned from Barbaras blog for using the term codependency, which Barbara doesnt permit. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. I believe our church greatly reduced the misery of the woman who died of alcoholism. Very well stated. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. All the years of being there listening to the beratement and anger gave me the ability to listen as well to the pain and fear. (A stinkbomb doesnt have to be dropped with malicious intent to make a room uninhabitable). God help you, dear. Blessings on you, under the words of Himself about blessed are the peacemakers. Does this mean I dont support CR, AA, and other support groups? A sermon wont cure my chronic conditions, but it might have an insight that helps me. He has been defrocked along with other troubles and has worked for years for his father who continued to pay him out of Ligonier funds in spite of his issues. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. Director Co-founder at Ligonier Ministries Vesta Sproul is the Board Member at Ligonier Ministries based in Sanford, Florida. I have no idea why it quoted it twice and there was a glitch attributing Barbaras quote to you. We can do better. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. @ refugee: But sexual problems are a common problem in alcoholics men and women alike and its covered in treatment programs and post-treatment programs. Sounds like it would do you good. Were not mind readers. I doubt I will. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. There is a difference. So I am left with confusion. I was only thinking of verse 11. Crickets. Okrapod, I thought, worked in radiology or something along those lines. This was reckless endangerment. Thank you for telling your story. I'm astonished he hasn't killed someone already.". No, they dont take those kinds of positions. Nice story about your father, Brian. Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Not always. So, perhaps Paul is assuming that we need to put resources on the brothers and sisters that are really asking for help. Years ago, I led a Bible study of workplace colleagues in which a young man confessed that he was struggling with excessive drinking because he was the son of an alcoholic. They deal with mind and body, not recognizing that man is first and foremost a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. Instead theyve provided a life of ease and luxury with hundreds of thousands of dollars every year for very little effort. After all even a sober wolf is still a wolf who will ravage sheep if given the chance. However, you did make a good point, and Im glad you did: Sproul Jr. did indeed engage in that sin and irresponsibility before those tragedies occurred his life which bolsters my original statement. Most people in this thread are staying on topic in a civil manner . But that runs right up against CELEBRITY Syndrome and TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!, Barbara Roberts wrote: I dont know. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. Try Highborn Heir to the Iron Throne of House Sproul.. Tragically, her parents were killed upon impact, and my friend and I were pinned in the GMC pick-up in which we were riding. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. Thanks H.A. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The innocent must be protected. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. Weve all read your points over and over again. I dont like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? Im sorry that Im unable to divulge further, but based on what I know, I say he should be put out, period. I am sure that Sproul Sr. paid for that. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. I did check the link that H.A. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Like they were in my lane. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. The problem drinker, on the other hand, CAN help it. You havent talked to everyone (not even close) so how could you make such assumptions? But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. Thanks for your response, thoughts, and viewpoint. Drunkenness is also condemned. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? I turned 13 about a month after the wreck and felt like a freak! The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. Thank you. Because if the focus is on the booze, and he from all appearances sobers up (which he could very well do) then where does that leave those of us who are his spiritual abuse victims? In short, what began as a symptom or presenting problem of some deeper problem takes over and then becomes a worse issue, a consuming vicious solution to the original suffering. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. Once again, I am proven wrong. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. -Which will bum Velour out for me to say, because she thinks Im not chipper and positive enough about things, but I am stating my reality. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. However, due to the toxic nature of these 6 practices in a group fellowship, do not allow these.). Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. I also see your point, that his family might be better off if he got treatment. I am extremely angry and jealous that I did not make the money he made. Provisions have also been made in order to detect error, sin, falsehood and the demonstration of improper behavior within the body of Christ believers. and me: That is what I was responding to. More of Anne Lamotts conversion story: http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html. Steven King, recovering alcoholic, (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. . Gracious hostess, no doubt that its sin gone amok. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. OK, well, Im not sure if I am in agreement with that view or not. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. 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