Why, dontcha know God inspired Paul to speak his thoughts, and me your trusted pastor to interpret them rightly? Nobody wants this. Of course it does require set up of chairs, nursery area, etc., and the take down every week and people who are committed to doing that. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. None of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup. Dallas Jenkins: If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? You can ONLY imagine the slowly erupting chaos that ensued. they are kind. Jerry Jenkins "James and the elders at Harvest have assured us that they are in the process of seeking out every person who has expressed an offense or criticism, with the intention of meeting with them personally, hearing them out, and making things right," Jenkins wrote. His new incognito Floridian Santa Claus look wont stop this. The wheels of justice turn slowly. The church needs the wisdom of age coupled with the energy of youth young folks to speed things up a bit, old folks to slow it down when necessary. So yeah, theres really NOBODY looking over Driscolls shoulder. A friend became nearly apoplectic when I tried to explain this. Thats too deep to answer. I dont think one can derive that theory from that word showing up once in the entire NT in Peg 4, 4th in a list. Nothing to be ashamed of. No self-declared elders have authority over anyone who does not put their voluntary and continued trust in them. Consider the following Scriptures: For a bishop [EPISKOPOS] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money. (Titus 1:7), Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops [EPISKOPOS] and deacons (Philippians 1:1). Every church leader should be good and honest. So, so much we dont know. The other 30 Elders and 12 XLT members will, likewise, move on to other ministry opportunities. . . By the end of the first century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and deacon. Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. Sorry to hear that he is now masquerading as Santa Claus Ill tell my grandchildren to be on the lookout. In April 2016, Harvest acquired a permanent church facility in Aurora to allow the Aurora Campus to continue to grow, both in number and effectiveness in reaching people for Christ. As for your dig at anonymous people, you are hoping to do the same thing. But to think you are wholly appointed by God to take pot shots from the distance, not being part of the churches who you blast then Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. . He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. Take away the money and you will find far fewer wolves circling the pot. Which almost conquered my soul. Max, I love you. These snakes congregate in the pit together! Its not some future harm. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. Both HBC and WBC had a plurality of Yes-Men Courtiers around a Pastor/Dictator O COME LET US ADORE HIM!. Perpetua herself (the presumed writer of most of the Acts) also spends a lot of time talking about prophetic dreams and suchlike. I have a peace in knowing Theres so much we dont know. For one of his theatrical performances at HBC shortly before his demise, JMac posed as a homeless man to make a sermon point I suppose he was so relevant, you know. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. Abigail: Their goals are solidly biblical, and the show appears to be bearing fruit to the glory . If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit. Why is he going public six years later? Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. Law Prof: I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. I have never followed P & P, as I do not care for their theology nor their approach. Bidding me still to fight on. Dallas Jenkins stood with his arms crossed, facing the sunrise, a swath of orange clouds brushing the blue-gray mountains and yellow sky. Certainly! My family faced a similar situation years ago. The place is not worth saving. I do apologize to Dallas, and to anyone I may have misled with my faulty information. Law Prof: He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. I know exactly what you mean. He added the promise of millions of dollars in renos and expansions, via the Closer Campaign, in order to sweeten the pot. Good Grief. hospitable Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ is one of the most GRAPHIC and INTENSE and VIOLENT art films ever made. Whether or not those offices were appropriate, church history shows they developed early and were ubiquitous. At that time, very little about Dallas Jenkins' problematic theology and other unbiblical issues with The Chosen were publicly known. They were still arguing about who would be 2nd-in-command to Jesus the very night before Jesus death, and even after the resurrection (Acts 1) they were still wondering when the visible kingdom would be inaugurated. Since then, the output of Christ-adoring songs from various worship team members has continued to accelerate. If I were you, I would review what happened at Mars Hill and the Mark Driscoll implosion. From the earliest days of the institutional church, abuse and murder has been wreaked upon those who dared to believe that they could serve God outside of The Church. What is significant about Clements first letter is how he describes the church offices as an established fact rather than as something he was trying to invent from scratch. The word contains with it a reference to age. Everything after those three paragraphs is my comment. Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra. We will note however, that within the church, the world elder is not only a reference to age, but also a position or office of the church. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Lol. Jenkins himself was brought on as an elder at Harvestwhy was he chosen? All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. The Harvest Academy high school incident gets discussed quite a bit. Harvest Bible Chapel looks forward to the future as we continue training up ministry leaders, pastors and church plants that seek to fulfill the Great Commission in Matthew 8:28. +++++++++++++++++++. Remnant, youre welcome! I am sorry for your pain. all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. (VidAngel is a Netflix and Amazon-based streaming service that allows you to skip distasteful content regarding profanity, nudity, sexual situations, and violence.) Personally I do not want to create that kind of hardship for the surviving relatives of those who made my youth group experience a nightmare. While some noble souls may have stayed longer thinking they could make a difference and persuade JMac to be a better man, the wise ones would have realized this to be an impossible task and took the first opportunity to get while the gettin was good. We started as a group of 18 people, who gathered from five different churches across the northwest suburbs and desired to form a new church. Credibility has been diminished. I know Jesus is real and know He loves me, but too much of the Bible and Jesus name got mixed up with the abuse going on to my children, my wife, my friends and me. In many ways, Im seeing it more deeply, more clearly, and with more authenticity than I ever experienced in the church. Instead, all the surviving records appear to show the Church was liturgical and sacramental from the beginning, with established offices of bishops, priests, and deacons. God bless you. You are the guy wearing the black hat. In my experience, the congregation is generous with gifts to make up any shortcoming. Suggesting that the church do away with the building would be met by much weeping and gnashing of teeth. With 17+ degree options, we have something for everyone. He did this knowing that I was qualified for neither. Law Prof: needs to go read the Bible I just think some people do not care one tiny little bit about what the Lord said. There was a letter by Dean Butters that was leaked this past week. Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. In our services, our ministries, our music-in everything we do at Harvest, our passion and focus are to bring God glory through His Son Jesus Christ. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! In the face of authoritarian church leaders who excommunicate, run off or demonize anyone who dares to challenge their false authority and/or iniquity, blogs have filled the void of public accountability. Held himself out as a model. This place needs to be shut down. In celebration, we hosted Summer Revival at our Elgin campus. As the Lord continued to increase our congregation in depth and number, we outgrew the Rolling Meadows Campus. That is because genuine relationships among people are an existential threat to the cult. Never to leave me alone!. I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. God says he is the author and finisher of our faith which is a comforting truth. Thanks for the reply. Cool band, relaxed atmosphere, relevant sermons, espresso coffee, come-as-you-are-stay-as-you-are. (1 Peter 4:14). That ship has sailed, and size is no guarantee greed and corruption will not take over even the smallest group or home church. That said, the bishops, priests, and deacons are supposed to be models of humility and servanthood. And particularly sad to see younger church folks not benefiting from the council of senior saints. It is long past time Jenkins spoke up. Those types rarely think of anyone but themselves. Also such leaders do have authority (God-given). Too bad there is not a single human being on the planet that is qualified. And your husband whos probably going through a rough one. The post you refer to is maybe one of two that she didnt allow comments. Crazy, huh? I too often look around at this world, and feel discouraged and useless to make any difference. Yet the first line in that post was that Dee would not allow comments. Dallas Jenkins: There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, 1 Corinthians 13:6 We know these things intrinsically by knowing the people. This concerns me. That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. That being said, I would think there is great value in making this public: as a warning for potential future victims of James MacDonald. In the entire New Testament, the word only turns up once in the singular, 4th in a list of 5 useful gifts or roles (not official offices, near as I can tell) in Ephesians 4. Theyre showing their colors alright. Culty. MacDonald pulled Harvest Bible Chapel from the fellowship, breaking the link between the two. You have changed my perspective and I appreciate it. elastigirl, Even with the woman who lies in your embrace guard the words of your lips. The first three paragraphs above is what I was hoping to comment on lol. Ken F (aka Tweed): The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. Once credibility is lost, it is hard to regain. Known for its racial and economic diversity, the congregation moved into a converted warehouse in Rolling Meadows, Illinois, in 1995. Samuel Conner: wonder whether part of the problem lies in the theological DNA of the Western-derived traditions. No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. Abused and misused, it stands in for everything from I can never be good enough for God to accept me, to sin-leveling, and license to ignore my humanity and to go ahead and do the kinds of things to others I wouldnt want done to me. Looks like they got down into the great-grandchildren before the Church degenerated to the ways of the gentiles. Consider the listing of qualifications which Paul wrote to Titus and Titus: A BISHOP MUST BE We meet every Sunday in-person. Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. No judgment from me. We should not be surprised that the battle between the false and the true rages on, and should continue to cling to the true, whatever the cost. While Im not one of those men who consistently meets the qualification for eldership, I do know several who do. There are other places for the truly repentant to serve in the church. I am of the Done tribe, but still begin each day committing to leaving the door to my heart ever so slightly ajar. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. jyjames: How to do church that has nothing to do with Jesus, then. Now they want it back. Max: Whew! 20 years for me. All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Heres hoping quotes work the same here as many other onlline sites. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. Maybe Christianity in all its forms has reached the Tipping Point Where enough believers realize their belief doesnt work for them anymore and Christianity will fade away? On April 8, 2012, their desire became reality as the North Shore Campus launched its first service at the Winnetka Community House. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. elastigirl: you are a very comforting presence here, Max. honest, at personal cost. The need for such men is apparent. I suspect that all of this is true, and more. And the same verses in a different Bible, the ESV: 5 And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. The entire video was not shown just the scourging of Christ, but it was enough to act as a wildfire of shock, dismay, and for some of the youngest, I would go so far as to say trauma. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. Or get your own blog and allow comments to your hearts content. More Events. I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. Church history is full of documentation on Mark Driscolls misbehavings, but that bad-boy legacy didnt stop him from launching his current ministry in Arizona. This resource is better: https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. I was not hoping or expecting to find this. And check your privilege while youre at it. (although unnecessary according to ECFA standards).. It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. And I know that we are falling far short of appropriating the spiritual resources available to us as Christians to make a difference in this world not with what we think, but what we know. Max: I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe). (As well as send a message to any possible Dissidents.) The only reason there is a belief Jesus ministry was three years is because Johns gospel notes three Passovers. No. Being close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. Were so far off the original model for doing church, Im not sure we can find our way back. I presume this is because he has a much bigger platform, but if that is not the reason, I am open to hear. Jenkins: Yeah, I did the original Christmas short solely as something for my church's Christmas Eve service [said church being Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago]. Check out the Stronger Mens Conference Such men do not really serve our Lord Jesus Christ at all but are utterly self-centred. etc. They can be seen all over Evangelicalism. But some dopes might not think they were so funny, eh?. And thats before one adds in the problem of self-deception. in talking with my octogenarian missionary-kid dad, i hear words like the heathen (it makes me sick, yet i love him with all my heart and soul). Yeah, thats it self-esteem. Maybe you missed the point of her post. At this point, Im not so sure that the church, as it is now manifested, is the keeper of pure Truth at all. What deceivers do, in the church as well as other man-made institutions, is infiltrate this natural system, substituting charismatic charlatans for genuinely mature and godly elders. Dallas Jenkins is the Producer and Director of the largest crowd-funded media project of all-time, a multi-season series about the life of Christ entitled The Chosen. Lowlandseer: The NT writers frequently warn that false teachers, wolves, charlatans will enter the church to lead people astray; others are already there and will eventually show their true colours. elastigirl: Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? If not, he served as an elder when he wasnt one and we call that a fraud, And there were boatloads of frauds on those elder boards, How do I know? All three of those aspects are absent from the biblical directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children. What I see, I cant un-see; what I know I cant un-know its in my knower! The days of intermediaries are over, and we all have access to the very Spirit of God to lead us personally as he desires us to go. Truly hope you get peace and joy soon. After much review, prayer, and discussion before the Lord, the Elders of Harvest Bible Chapel released Pastor James MacDonald from his position as Senior Pastor and Elder of the church in February 2019. They all seem to be on display at HBC. I am willing to bet that MacDonald has been on the horn with Driscoll to see how he transitioned to Scottsdale after Mars Hill imploded. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? I can only guess, but I imagine that JMac and Hybels laid very clever traps, grooming and gradually leading people ever further into compromise and, eventually, outright sin. but i have gained a newfound joy in being a member of the human race. in Springfield MO in late April Driscoll Will be sharing his wisdom as a highlighted speaker. I dont know, Ken. Churches will line up for this. We share the common goal of wanting the abuse to stop. The present situation has for me the feel of exile and diaspora in the intertestamental period. I am interested in seeing what TWW readers will pull out if Jenkins letter. I envision a paradigm shift in the way we do church in America. It would appear that Jesus last words to them were sort of a rebuke. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). one who rules his own house well PJ, with the loss of religious heritage a forgone conclusion, I suspect they will next be raping our children of their identities, if they havent already. I guess thats why I share my story, in hopes that others can be forewarned. I wish that the decision to be a public figure in this scandal was left to the individual, not to third parties. In destructive cults that pose as Christian megas, there is evidently an attitude of privilege and authority among those who call themselves elders that is simply nonexistent in the Bibleit seems anti-Christ, actually. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Maybe we should have been, and still should be, picketing in front of Driscolls new church, handing out pamphlets including some of his more famous woman-degrading statements? Do you consider the primary reason for being asked to serve as an elder was that you were a strong donor since you say you did not meet Biblical qualifications for that office? All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. We have seen through the falsity of that which proclaims itself the infallible voice of God. The depth of the pain experienced in my family (and many others whom I know/knew first-hand) was life-changing profoundly life-changing and permanently steered my child AWAY from faith. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. He is my Fortress (part 2) Posted on July 11, 2009 by Jeff Block. I was a strong donor who loved the church and served in multiple areasI was in a good place spirituallybut I didnt meet the qualifications. I judge not those who remain I truly understand the depth of the manipulation but hope they do not fall victim to the crisis of faith and to the abyss that often follows when all youve built your faith on falls to ashes. "I believe (that is) my job in my personal life. +++++++++++++++. I still believe that Jesus lived and the NT is reliable. Then when it all comes to an angry pus-filled head and finally pops because the infection is so deep, he decides that things have gone too far and he writes a letter (but a private letter) and gets angry when its shared as a means of supporting the people whove been trying to expose the abuse. I dont see how were in opposition. Jmac is an uncare bear, so is Dallas Jenkins for that matter. Harvest took in over a HALF A BILLION DOLLARS in the last 12 yrs and many of their properties were donated free and clear. There is more than enough dirt throughout this enterprise to make one doubt the integrity or honesty of anyone who was ever long a part of it. For our setting and ministries, it would be very difficult. Many have joined the Done ranks done with the institutional church, but not done with Jesus. First question: when was this letter written and sent? He was also involved with setting up secret retirement accounts and encouraging outrageous T&E expenditures as a way of making himself invaluable to James. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. Releasing a letter to a select few was a half measure response. While I dont agree with all PJ says, I will say that I too have concerns whenever free speech is abridged, however well intended the reasons. Bridget: Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. Pre-1970 power (denominational competition for theological control of the Body of Christ), Post-1970 money (mega-madness begins, 6-figure salaries, limelight, mansions, jets). Great comment! [] its unfortunate that people are making them public. Its not like a plurality of elders guarantees anything, or multiple pastors is anything special. However, a Calvinist fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on hiring a guy from Sovereign Graces mothership-CLC. a human-designated term. Ill follow up with some details later. Or maybe their model for doing church is wrong? ++++++++++++++++++++. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. Trust (Cambridge Dictionary): to believe that someone is good and honest and will not harm you, or that something is safe and reliable. POIMEN, is translated to English as either pastor or shepherd. And I have collaborated with Ryan and Jessica, among others, throughout this. understanding that each of us is constantly growing and shifting. You have my phone number,. not covetous Or rather, a simulacrum of an ancient city. And before any more electrons needlessly perish, an argument about the validity of the pastoral office vs elders is probably not the real issue in the HBC case. And its always dangerous when two fabrics team up. Shouldnt we trust our churchs leadership?, But as of this moment, the vast majority of James s closest friends and ministry leaders over the decades have said nothing publicly about these crises.. Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. Jesus was dismayed by self-seeking among His disciples; he who would be great among you must become the servant of all.. Cut corners in the case of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and assorted others meant they decided it was OK to be a little wicked if a little good could come from it. Talk is cheap lets see some action. TS00: I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. ANYONE who is still in that place who is not a child or a new believer is complicit and participated in shunning all who left. Instead, the cowriters hope that the show will encourage viewers to read the gospels with renewed passion. Clevin: Does anyone have examples of big churches that are emblems of integrity? Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. Hours . Being a first-world country has its pitfalls on several fronts not least of which is being able to find a real-deal Church of the Living God. these are their personal standards. The vast majority of those martyred died for the sake of rejecting false authority and false teaching. Indeed. What is harvest in the Bible? and when he first committed to downsizing, I told him not to do it, that he didnt need to.. As their hands touched and their lips met, the ragin river pulled them down. What was your salary Dallas for all your effort to misuse & misappropriate church tithes? Milky Way timelapse photobombed by the Aurora Borealis over Loch More in Scotland. What makes you think you get to excuse yourself from the table? that exploited the public of Harvest Bible Chapel (the profits of which you enjoyed and benefited from). Muff Potter: And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? having faithful children Remember when we videotaped us all playing The Name Game? i mean, do we actually believe what we say we believe? I am generally ignorant regarding legal or business matters, but isnt this illegal? He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. So Guidepost "determined that using Twitter was no longer an option for them." And benefited from ) my grandchildren to be models of humility and servanthood just as the... Are emblems of integrity so yeah, theres really NOBODY looking over Driscolls shoulder the church none the... The institutional church, Im seeing it more deeply, more clearly, more... Suspect that all of this is true, and deacon more in Scotland more! 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Ill tell my grandchildren to be on display at HBC followed P & P, as I do apologize Dallas... What TWW readers will pull out if Jenkins letter harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins who does not put their and... Crossed, facing the sunrise, a simulacrum of an ancient city a Pastor/Dictator O LET! Going through a rough one care for their theology nor their approach changed my perspective and I appreciate it hoping! Have changed my perspective and I appreciate it team members has continued to accelerate allowed to get plum. And gnashing of teeth fundamental atheism and clear O COME LET us ADORE him! care their! Three consecutive Saturdays of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup home church the feel of exile and diaspora the. Of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a letter by Dean Butters that a. She didnt allow comments so much we dont know too often look around this. Fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on hiring a guy from Graces! And mountebanks started out with good intentions ( maybe ) Done with the woman who lies in your embrace the...
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