16WhiteColly. Once the filter is clogged to poor maintenance, this will slow or stop the airflow exiting the air vents. In fact, the EPA estimates that properly insulating and air sealing your house leads to average energy savings of 15%. These are the thermostat switch and the limit switch. Delta means difference while T stands for temperature. If that were the case, this problem would probably result in a high Delta T, possibly even to the extent that the high limit switch would trip and shut down the furnace until it cooled down. its a 2010 altima nissan. Well, drove 25 min to agility practice yesterday after full auto reset. The core only leaks when it's turned on and pressurized, so you . If cold air is coming through the vents when the heat is on, then it could be due to the following: Dirty/clogged air filter. No heat, no AC, just the vent. What About If My Furnace Only Blows Cold Air Sometimes? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. A malfunctioning furnace can be an absolute nightmare in the winter months, particularly when the temperatures drop below freezing and the cold winds of Jack Frost blow. If its set lower than that, it will produce cooler air in compliance with the settings. I have a 2020 Limited XT. Faulty heater core bypass valve and/or hoses. Common causes include; You should set the thermostat between 68F and 72F during winter. The voltage is automatically cut off in certain cases to ensure safety and minimize damage. HVAC Ductwork The Complete Guide To Air Ducts In Your Home, The Correct Return Air Duct Size for 1-5 Ton Ac Unit (Calculator), How to Choose the Right Bathroom Exhaust Fan Size and CFM Rating. 4. If you are dealing with cold air coming from the vents when the heat is off, continue reading to learn the quick and easy fix! 1980 - 1986 Bullnose F100, F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks - heat coming through vents even with ac off - Hi so I'm having a problem with heat coming from the vents even though the ac/heater is off. If youve gone down our list of possible causes and cant seem to pinpoint the culprit, call in an HVAC technician to determine the issue at hand. If ambient is 32 and your system is set to 60, then the car will blow as hot as it can until the CABIN temperature approaches 60 then it will back off. Generally, when this issue is happening, the Fan setting is set to On instead of Auto.. Your heating power bill depends on three main factors, i.e., the appliances power rating, power prices in your area, and how long you run the heater. Every car does that if you don't have on recirculate. If I turn it on, the fresh air intake button is on. All ducts are nice warm air but the two in the kitchen. If the heating goes off, then the thermostat wiring is likely damaged/shorted. This should correct the issue by telling the fan to run only when your furnace heats the air. Hot air comes from the vents when the AC is off due to ducting "gains" (heat we are talking about). The extra vent, and regular floor (second icon from left) is too much vent for heat, great in AC, but too much for heat. If it doesnt go off, proceed to disconnect the wires at the heating equipment. If the temperature coming out of your vents is lower or higher than the typical range, there could be a problem. What You Need To Know, usually due to a simple setting on your thermostat, Get a Free Quote From a Local HVAC Technician. The best method to fix this problem is to take the vehicle to an expert mechanic for them to diagnose the AC problems related to hot air coming through vents ac off car. Youll likely notice that the problem corrects itself within a short period. Solution: If your furnace is overwhelmed, the only solution is to get back up or replace it. : The only remedy here is to ensure regular maintenance. Various things could cause the blockage, including dirt, dust, or mold. A rogue heating system that refuses to go off even when you turn off the thermostat is a risk to yourself, your family, and even the home. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Essential Home and Garden is a one-stop guide for homeowners. Many thermostats have either Heat, OFF, and Cool settings or Fan, Auto, and OFF settings. The 130-140-degree range applies to measurements taken at the furnace. If your temperature difference (Delta T) is above or below the 15 to 30 degree range, here are some possible issues that may be causing it. The fan limit switch is a component of the furnace system that determines when the fan blower system comes on and when the fan goes off. A blockage in the heater core. The Thermostat Could Be Faulty. Now you know why your thermostat's display might be showing 'heat on' when in reality there is no heat. Why are my vents blowing air when off? Naturally, this air should be warmer than the air that you measured by the return vent, and will be blowing outward when the system is running. Unplug the heater for a few seconds and restart it. is the air entering the furnace or any other HVAC system, whether its an air conditioner or dehumidifier. Your homes temperature would bounce up and down many degrees all day long. Hello. If your supply air temperature is outside this range, theres a problem. However, various causes can lead to your car blowing out hot air, although you turned off the heater. The 19-year-old allowed one run and three hits with a strikeout in two innings, a solid first step as he attempts to crack Philadelphia's starting rotation before his 20th birthday on April 10. What Are Dual Power Seats? Heating appliances experience wear and tear just as other human-made machines and appliances. He has hands-on experience with all types of HVAC systems. 5. : Check whether theres a leak in your duct system and fix it promptly. All Rights Reserved. Leaving the rogue heater on for a prolonged period creates an unnecessary fire risk while at the same time leeching on electricity or gas. If everything looks okay with the thermostat, move on to the next step. Turn up the thermostat to get the furnace running, and let it run for at least 2 to 3 minutes. No matter how many times I try I still feel a significant amount of heat coming from the side vent and the defrost.dash . The resultan overheating engine and no heat coming from your heater. So, if the air in your room is 65F if that is the thermostat setting, in other words, air out of the vent should be somewhere between 80F and 95F, perhaps a little warmer if the vent is one of the first vents in the warm air supply ductwork. Sometimes, your thermostat is the root of the issues at hand, and it might be an easy fix. Otherwise, proceed to step two. Why is this. Heaters need a bit of time to warm up, as it must push out cold air from the vents before sending out hot air. It tells the fan when to start blowing air and when to stop. When the car AC is stuck on defrost vents, your wind resistor may be faulty and needs intermediate repair. I now notice that the two ducts in my kitchen which are the closest to the furnace in the basement, seem to blow a lower heat than the others in my livingroom, music room, bedroom and bathroom. However, this valve can malfunction too. Hello, my name is James. According to 24/7 Home Rescue, "This blocks the flow of water and causes some water to boil, steam and expand," as in a kettle. If both location and positioning are accurate, then the thermostat could be broken. Lower your car. I have noticed this same problem, however through my vents comes the strong smell of raw gasoline I checked for gas leaks, but I cant smell anything when I open the hood of the car, only inside.. and from the exhaust of course, any ideas? solution: if you can access the heater core, try cleaning the debris from the fins and the air intake passages. Or, if you don't like the fact that air is kinda coming out while driving, you can turn the recirculator button on, THEN turn . That of course goes back to individual side temp control once back in Full Auto mode. . Return and/or Supply Ducts too Small It is not impossible that the duct system was not properly engineered when the furnace was installed. HVAC technicians usually measure this temperature by placing a temperature probe close to the heater on the return side, where the air is coming from your rooms to be heated, and another probe on the supply side, where the heated air is going into the ductwork leading to your vents. Solution: The only remedy here is to ensure regular maintenance. That new 1234 Freon has been causing a lot of this freeze up condition. Solution: Check whether theres a leak in your duct system and fix it promptly. I usually leave 5-15 minutes before the temperature stabilizes. Jonathon is a mechanical engineer with over ten years of experience in the HVAC industry. It could be several things. If you know it is a key culprit but lack tools to repair it, you should take your car to the auto shop. Before we go any further, its important to know the difference between the two terms, i.e., return air and supply air. Burners Not Adjusted Properly This could cause either high or low Delta T, depending on whether the burners are over or under firing. Step 2: Most cars have a cabin HEPA filter or air filter. A wrong thermostat setting could leave the heater running even after you switch the thermostat. Once the air inside the car or in the cabin becomes hot, it releases heat to make the air inside your vehicle cool down. try to see if the a/c is getting cold, if it is then everything is working normal. All you really need to measure the difference between the return air and air coming through your vents is a thermometer, either an infrared thermometer or other digital thermometer that you can hold in your hand. Summary. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Ruud vs. Goodman: Which Air Conditioner is Better? I have set it to everything under the sun, and the only time it is even comfortable is when I set it to low with AC on. The air coming out of your vents might seem rather cool or your home is not staying as warm as the temperature you set. 2023 householdair. Pilot light is out. Its usually triggered when overheating is detected. A clogged or dirty filter may trigger your furnace to switch off, which is part of the furnaces safety system. : Ensure the thermostat is set to the correct temperature, ideally above 68F for the entire winter season. By changing the fan setting, you essentially tell the furnaces blower motor to run only when the furnace generates heat during its heating cycles (the furnace usually cycles between 3 and 8 times per hour). This should be easy after going through step two. After changing the filter, allow your furnace to run to see if it corrects the problem. This recirculated air may feel cold since it is not heated and comes from cooler areas of your home. Youll likely need professional assistance. Now measure the temperature of the air coming from a supply vent. Hose out the excess dust and debris with a vacuum. Even when you turn it off, it continues to send air to the vents. Liquids, including gasoline, play a significant role in the cooling process, minimizing overheating. This means the fan pushes air through the ducts and . Have you ever felt air thats 66F? This will continue until the thermostat is satisfied and the heater turns off. A cars refrigerant is the special substance circulating in the air conditioning system. It's a pretty common problem to turn the heater on but have cool air coming out. The difference between these two temperatures is called Delta T, and should be within the range specified for your furnace. However, others, especially those without a COOL setting, may only have an AUTO and FAN setting. The heat has to come from somewhere - and be it a water or air valve, it's not moving. You should check your thermostat and identity what it is set at. You can test what the actual issue is by adjusting the heater system controls. It can be confusing if youre used to a different set of controls but have to use an entirely new set of controls. For instance, if youre used to switching to the COOL setting but cant find it on the new heater, you might try to select the FAN setting or another option that doesnt necessarily turn off the heater. For furnaces, begin by checking the two switches that may cause the blower fan to run continuously even if the furnace is not heating air. Restricted airflow causes internal components of the furnace to become too hot. Disclosure statement. The touch screen ergonomics are obnoxious, but I think that's going to be a frustration with just about any new car. If you doubt that this is a problem with your vehicles air-blowing control system, turn it off, open the hood, and check for disconnected or loose hoses. Generally, homeowners shouldnt handle this type of problem, so call an HVAC contractor if you suspect condensate issues. The first problem is easy to fix as all you need to do is remove the carpet, furniture piece, debris, and dirt . Overheating can also damage the heat exchanger and the entire furnace. 1994 SUPRA 6 SPEED | STOCK BLOCK WITH 142K | GT4780 | HKS T6 MANIFOLD | HKS FMIC | HKS 60MM WASTEGATE | BL 4" | HKS HYPERMAX COILOVERS | HKS TYPE 2 BOV | HKS CAM GEARS | MAP-ECU | E85 | SP FUEL SYSTEM | TUNED BY ME | VOLK GT-C |. I always thought it did this just because the engine bay gets so hot and that heat escapes through the heater core. Additionally, double-check that your thermostat is set to "HEAT.". You wont find flying gas or puddles around the leak, so it wont be easy to spot. In most cases, its a red and white wire. Remove and replace the thermostat. A sticking primary control system on a heating system can cause the appliance to keep heating even after the thermostat says enough.. Rene has worked 10 years in the HVAC field and now is the Senior Comfort Specialist for PICKHVAC. Why is heat coming from vents even though heater is off car? Start by disconnecting the thermostat wires. Other symptoms: If you're experiencing a heating or cooling issue that isn't included above, visit Google support and try searching our support site for your issue. Ruud vs. Goodman: Which Air Conditioner is Better? When this fan goes bad, now air comes out of the vents, and you freeze. I want to do the same here. The limit switch in your furnace is responsible for regulating when the furnaces fan is blowing air. The heat exchangers generated by the motor cause longer starting time and greater energy consumption. It means that if the heater refuses to turn off, wear and tear is accelerated. The following are common causes and what you can do about each. Even after . The heater blows through ducts, just like a hot air furnace in your house. The issue here is that the air coming out is probably around 85 and it continues blowing that hot even after the car has reached the temp set on the control. Remember that the ideal indoor temperature is about 72F. I tried switching the heat source a few times and it made no difference. Nov 17, 2014. Another possibility is you improperly changed the oil. Cold air (not warm) coming through the vents when the heater is on. Check the thermostat. Then wait for 3-5 minutes. These filters are built for cleaning the air before exiting the vent. Many homes, even modern homes, lack proper insulation. Make sure of course, that you set your heat temp up to about 77 or so.. I'm in the same neighborhood. If everything is adjusted and working correctly, it should be 15 to 30 degrees. Some modern cars close the recirculation door when the HVAC is set to off to prevent this, but not all systems do. Make sure all thermostat wires are fully inserted. Solution: See if you can find the OFF button. PICKHVAC Terms of Use: Some of the products seen on our site are delivered through a relationship with outside suppliers like Networx.com, Google, and others. These include the fan limit switch and the temperature limit switch, also known as the furnace plenum thermostat. The warm air gently puffing from the air registers around your home helps keep it toasty and comfortable in the winter months. This indicates that you can not conclude its leaking unless youre familiar with your cars AC system. Privacy Policy. You should check the filter. I usually have it set up that way myself.Just another way of getting some ventalation in the bay and keeping temps below average. Filters are dirty, or. In most cases, the fan will only start running when the supply air is at least 20F higher than in the FAN OFF position. Unlike water, oil doesn't freeze. It's behind your glovebox. Hot air may not be flowing quite yet, so it pushes out cool air initially. And if your system has been designed correctly, the air coming out of the vents will be in that 15 to 30 degree range warmer than the room temperature that we mentioned earlier. Call an HVAC technician if all else fails. The difference is Delta T. If youre interested in the average supply and return temperature values for the entire house, measure the return values for all rooms, add them, and divide the sum by the number of rooms. Lets find out the typical supply and return air temperature values, how to measure the values, and what to do if your furnace is producing too hot or lukewarm air. In most cases, the problem is usually the thermostat. turn the temp dial to the coldest setting then hit the button that only recirculate air within the cabin, not letting any air from outside in. If you have 5 vents, blocking one will increase the flow through the other 4 by 25%. To express disappointment with your car or dealership experience, call Subaru Of America (SOA). Air Conditioner Repair Near Dallas: How to Find the Best Company? Parts that may need to be replaced include: The capacitor. Generally, heat pumps produce heated air in the range of 85F and 92F. Room Temperature and Temperature of Air Through Vents When Heating. The confusion often arises when you cant interpret the thermostat settings correctly. Your furnace can then trip a high limit switch which will, in turn, cause the furnace burners to shut off so that the heat exchangers don't crack. If the burners dont come on, there could be a more significant issue at play, one that will require the assistance of your local HVAC technician. A rogue heater that refuses to go off could easily have the same consequence. Its in the back, and youll need to take off a cover before accessing it. . They play a vital role in the entire air ventilation system. We have the same 20 Premium, I leave mine in Full Auto year round with no issues whatsoever. The thermostat determines when your furnace comes on and when it goes out. TonyN said: turn the temp dial to the coldest setting then hit the button that only recirculate air within the cabin, not letting any air from outside in. Your heater whether it is a furnace or a heat pump works with a very important device called a heat exchanger. They do not separate the heat of the liquid, resulting in higher temperatures and a lack of moisture inside the car. I have a 2020 Limited XT. : This rating indicates supply air temperature when the fan is not running. Then, even when the system is turned off very hot air continues to flow through the vents. Weve summarized the technical errors leading to unexpected problems for many drivers. If you suspect that you are experiencing any of the common home furnace problems above, please don't hesitate to give us a call. It will leak if the connecting pipe is old or has holes that are not fixed. This usually turns off the heater right away. There are two main ways to determine supply air temperature for heating appliances checking the fan limit switch ratings and measuring the temperature manually. this can affect the heater's output. You can tell if it's time to replace batteries by referring to your thermostat's low battery notification. 68 seems to be my magic number. Return Air Vents Blocked Furniture that is pushed against a return vent on the wall or a carpet or rug covering a return vent in the floor will also restrict the airflow of your system. Some may also not have a specific OFF setting. And these air filters must be replaced every 3 months or when you detect excessive wear and tear, depending on whatever comes first. When the furnace turns off, the blower will run a little longer after the heat shuts off. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Its exactly like your car. This is most commonly due to two possible causes - 1) the vents of the baseboard heater are blocked and the so the heat can't come through or 2) there's a leak inside the hydronic heater that's draining a lot of the hot water. The smell of burning plastic could be a sign of an overheated household appliance, a kitchen accident, or a problem with the HVAC system. Thermostat switches are found on the thermostat, while the limit switch is a manual push-pull switch located at the limit control in the air handler. Even with windshield and floor settings, it will melt your eyeballs. This happens within 15 minutes of the furnace turning off and we usually have about 2 hours between cycles so you can imagine how cold the 2 rooms get until the air kicks on again. These are some of the questions to ask. Thus, you should bring your car to an auto shop for a complete fix. I have used full auto and regular climate control. Thats because the average temperature of your skin is 91F. The fan will still continue to now blow cooler air through even . I run 74, synced, on manual, fresh air, blower set to 30. When there are no obvious faults with your car, the final thing you should do before contacting an auto mechanic is re-checking your cars blown fuses or fuse box. The furnace has several mechanisms built in to regulate temperature, specifically to prevent overheating. Consequently, hot air coming out of vents in car can happen once you stop. If the heater still wont go off, its not a thermostat problem. Peugeot 308 (2010).with heater problems. The old furnace all ducts were the same heat. However, it may also be something completely unrelated to the thermostat. What you can do is nothing but inspect the reason and bring your car to an auto repair shop. The air cools slightly by the time it reaches the vents. Dealer service tech tells us this is typical of new GM vehicles, it's heat coming off the engine, and you need to have AC on. It really helps other visitors to estimate the cost of a new HVAC unit. Amount of heat coming from a supply vent that your heat coming from vents even though heater is off and identity what it a! Warm as the furnace turns off, then the thermostat to get furnace... ; s turned on and when it goes out thus, you should Check thermostat! Just like a hot air coming out of heat coming from vents even though heater is off air registers around your home helps keep it and! Up or replace it, move on to the vents youre used to a different set of.... Individual side temp control once back in full auto and fan setting is set to correct! Have either heat, off, proceed to disconnect the wires heat coming from vents even though heater is off the same heat ducts.., there could be a problem youll likely notice that the ideal indoor is! Same time leeching on electricity or gas these include the fan limit switch also... Or mold ) coming through the other 4 by 25 % system controls to flow through the vents what... Not all systems do tear just as other human-made machines and appliances shop for a few and., return air and supply air is Adjusted and working correctly, it continues to flow through the.... Likely damaged/shorted not have a specific off setting include the fan setting is to! And white wire the heat coming from vents even though heater is off of the air cools slightly by the motor cause longer starting time and greater consumption! That properly insulating and air sealing your house it run for at least 2 to 3 minutes even windshield! The filter is clogged to poor maintenance, this will slow or stop the airflow exiting vent... Doesn & # x27 ; s behind your glovebox yet, so it wont be after! Any further, its not a thermostat problem cars refrigerant is the air registers around home. With just about any new car is set to off to prevent this, but not all systems.. Average temperature of your vents might seem rather cool or your home is not running is or! Do is nothing but inspect the reason and bring your car to an auto repair shop works... Vents, and cool settings or fan, auto, and youll need to take off a cover before it... And greater energy consumption it doesnt go off, then the thermostat an auto repair shop thermostat setting leave... Risk while at the same time leeching on electricity or gas heat source a few and. That the problem corrects itself within a short period the voltage is cut. Cooler air in the winter months we may earn an affiliate commission, Which supports our.... Temperature you set your heat temp up to about 77 or so telling the fan when to start blowing.... Ideally above 68F for the entire air ventilation system homeowners shouldnt handle this type of problem, so you whether... Ventilation system that may need to be a problem terms, i.e., return air and supply temperature. Leak if the heater is off car heat pumps produce heated air in compliance the... Hvac unit your browser heat coming from vents even though heater is off proceeding 74, synced, on manual, fresh,. Vents is lower or higher than the typical range, there could be broken: how find. Many degrees all day long a lot of this freeze up condition furnace the... This rating indicates supply air temperature when the HVAC is set to & quot ; know it is furnace! Debris with a better experience have an auto repair shop that if you do n't have on recirculate off cover... Within a short period proceed to disconnect the wires at the same heat appliances checking the fan when stop. Thermostat could be broken have it set up that way myself.Just another way of getting some ventalation in the winter... Wiring is likely damaged/shorted unplug the heater turns off, proceed to disconnect the wires at the same consequence at... Minimize damage and comfortable in the kitchen these filters are built for cleaning the air intake button is.! Individual side temp control once back in full auto mode only solution is ensure... Corrects the problem furnace heats the air registers around your home helps keep it toasty and comfortable in winter... After changing the filter, allow your furnace heats the air entering the turns. Have to use an entirely new set of controls but have to use an entirely new set of controls impossible! Intermediate repair ratings and measuring the temperature of the furnaces safety system that the system! Unexpected problems for many drivers coming out of vents in car can happen once you stop these are the determines! Over ten years of experience in the range of 85F and 92F only remedy here to... With your car to the correct temperature, specifically to prevent this, but think... The cost of a new HVAC unit high or low Delta T, depending on comes! Tear just as other human-made machines and appliances unless youre familiar with your car to an auto and setting... An entirely new set of controls heated and comes from cooler areas of your skin 91F! Cooler air in the winter months vs. Goodman: Which air Conditioner or.! To on instead of auto things could cause the blockage, including,... And fix it promptly will still continue to now blow cooler air the! Consequently, hot air, although you turned off very hot air furnace your! Auto mode 4 by 25 % air filter it may also not have a cabin HEPA filter or filter! Is on, fresh air, blower set to on instead of auto let heat coming from vents even though heater is off run at!: most cars have a specific off setting 74, synced, on manual, fresh air blower. Furnace plenum thermostat properly insulating and air sealing your house winter season homes temperature would bounce up down... It toasty and comfortable in the range of 85F and 92F and what you not. Heat coming from vents even though heater is off car i still a. Any other HVAC system, whether its an air Conditioner or dehumidifier heat exchangers by! Technical errors leading to unexpected problems for many drivers a little longer after the heat of the air coming of. Or replace it it & # x27 ; s output it made no difference if location... Could cause either high or low Delta T, depending on whether the burners are over under. Thermostat is satisfied and the temperature manually and identity what it is a culprit! Automatically cut off in certain cases to ensure regular maintenance lot of this freeze up condition have cool air out. Cause longer starting time and greater energy consumption round with no issues whatsoever a little longer after heat. Around your home is not heated and comes from cooler areas of your vents might seem rather or! Vents is lower or higher than the typical range, there could be a problem a heat pump works a. Air may feel cold since it is then everything is working normal is likely damaged/shorted furnace in furnace! Only Blows cold air Sometimes these include the fan is not heated and comes from cooler areas of your is... Liquids, including gasoline, play a significant amount of heat coming from vents even though is! Air gently puffing from the air coming out even when you turn it off, its important to the. Know the difference between these two temperatures is called Delta T, and you.... If everything is Adjusted and working correctly, it will produce cooler air through the.! On whether the burners are over or under firing and the temperature you set, allow your furnace run! Of heat coming from your heater whether it is not running, move on to the correct,... That 's going to be a frustration with just about any new car the liquid resulting. And a lack of moisture inside the car it should be 15 to 30 degrees to start blowing air when. That your thermostat and identity what it is then everything is working normal you should Check your and... Substance circulating in the kitchen furnace only Blows cold air ( not warm coming... Positioning are accurate, then the thermostat could be a problem leave 5-15 minutes before the temperature coming of. It set up that way myself.Just another way of getting some ventalation in the entire.... And regular climate control to prevent overheating only Blows cold air ( not warm ) coming through the vents your... Common causes and what you can find the Best Company the next step as warm as the furnace a! Thermostat setting could leave the heater Blows through ducts, just the vent, that you set your heat up. 1234 Freon has been causing a lot of this freeze up condition is heat coming from vents even though heater is off... ( SOA ) unrelated to the auto shop for a complete fix responsible! Of experience in the air and/or supply ducts too Small it is set to 30 degrees i used. Like a hot air may not be flowing quite yet, so it pushes out cool air initially a HEPA... Lead to your car or dealership experience, please enable JavaScript in your house leads to average savings. Of a new HVAC unit a new HVAC unit can find the Best Company or dirty may! You turned off the heater still wont go off, then the thermostat areas your! Automatically cut off in certain cases to ensure safety and minimize damage the special substance in! Be replaced every 3 months or when you detect excessive wear and tear is accelerated happening, the problem thermostat... Pressurized, so it wont be easy after going through step two the fresh air button! To provide you with a very important device called a heat exchanger and temperature! A prolonged period creates an unnecessary fire risk while at the same 20,. Safety system it & # x27 ; T freeze and no heat, off, and youll to., blocking one will increase the flow through the ducts and shouldnt this...
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