I believe the scriptures provide much more grace for a needy sinner including homosexuals. Ireland, 2022, 1h 34min, DCP, In Irish Gaelic and English with English subtitles. Even if you hate me for it. It is a pattern of sin emanating from our wicked hearts. Ya know, its the love of God that leads all of us to repentance: and I have enuf of my own crap to judge someone elses- if there is any. Jesus does say if you love me you will keep my commands. I very much liked the quotations this article ends with. Way too much dialogue is done publicly and its not healthy. But we have GRACE. We cant say its ok because peoples feelings might be hurt. She also said she attempted suicide. But dont you see that disagreement doesnt immediately mean hate? View Event Website . By saying homosexual practice is not sin, it is a form of self-justification rather than Jesus-justification. April 28: In response to a Christianity Today article questioning her accountability to a Church, JH tweets Men have ministries. Women have blogs. Ive pastored 20 years. Burnt toast actually. The Scriptures are clear that believers of the Christian faith often speak in tongues. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Farewell Jen Hatmaker: the brutality of unhealthy religion, Its perfectly natural, not perfectly biblical, to desire the death penalty, A tale of two Christianities on its knees. I read the wounded wolves article and was disturbed by it as well. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Lets focus on how the devil is using each and everyone of us in order to win good people over to his side. CARE FOR ALL PEOPLE. I think most people on the other side do not want to intentionally be mean or attacking. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. However, most of my Presbyterian friends dont believe or practice this. Maybe youre PCA, and if so, I would ask you how you justify the idea of salvation through grace alone when verses like Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:13, and James 2:24 show very clearly that works are a part of it. Sunday, May 28, 2022 Ascension Day. I had never really heard of Hatmaker before and then I heard she inclusive of same sex relationships. Its a difficult place to beI feel like Im losing my home. Maybe try and figure out where your love went. But if a person is a reviler someone who is rude, denigrates others, makes fun of them or tries to make them look small then we should keep away. We ought to love in truth and tell the truth in love. Yet, I find myself sobbing in my back yard as I listen, hoping no one hears . Many of my charismatic and Pentecostal friends speak in tongues (some call it a prayer language) and swear by it. PLEASE let conservative evangelicals continue to build walls and isolate themselves from the rest of society. I think most Christians would agree with that. Ancient covenants were achieved when both parties passed through the blood of severed animals on either side. And Im frankly sick and tired of the broken bodies and lives as a result. Gal. In your pursuit of eternal life, have you sold all your possessions and given them to the poor and if not, how do you justify that? But this only provided them with more ammunition and fueled their rightness. The loaded the big guns, and intensified their attack. Since I dont know, Id ask a few questions in return When criticism comes lazily through gossip and public media it makes all Christians look like tools (angry, thoughtless, disrespectful, impatient people). . I shouldnt have to spell it out. In the meantime, lets pray for our sister currently in the crosshairs of unhealthy religion, knowing that at any time it could be you or me who draws the ire of her detractors. Religion is bull$hit. They base their beliefs on Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 which clearly state that water baptism is part of the salvation equation. Timeline: both the shelter and the solitude of silence with the eloquence of Colm Bairad's gently captivating Irish . If so, how will you justify that to him? Somewhat ironic, and perhaps some of the fellow congregants should have been listening more closely. Whether you agree with Jen on her understanding of homosexuality or not, I can say she is an exceptional follower of Jesus who has given her life in service of the. The building was originally Faith United Methodist Church since 1968 and in January of . I would also ask, why do we tolerate certain sins in ourselves and others? He ONLY allows it because, to quote Jesus, because of mankinds hardness of heart. Lots of talk of RELIGION-not FAITH Do I wish God would lighten up on his sexual ethic? Do you not judge those who are inside? Sinful mankind, including Gospel-loving movements of the past, have done this time and again. I dont know the answer, but Jesus was public in his condemnation plenty of times too. Wonder why the majority of the Christian Machine disdains you? Stop making excuses. Its not a respectful desire to explore matters of the heart, to find common ground, or to discern a way to live respectfully with differences on non-core beliefs. He told the prostitute to sin no more. Constricting.Simulating.Seekin Thanks, Mike. This is the problem with Rob Bell and the other guy mentioned in the Article. This IS great, Mike!! And God HATES divorce. Of course homosexuality us wrong-its everywhere in the Bible. I was super bummed out by most of the comments. Law and love are often in conflict. Yet, I am still saved. Here are his words to think about while you play gatekeeper over Hatmaker and the others and this topic. And if you think Im exaggerating, recall John Pipers incendiary tweet Farewell, Rob Bell, written in response to Bells book Love Wins. Later compilers did that. Come be part of what God is doing." Yours just ignoring the facts otherwise. One is the leaven of the Pharisees, one is the leaven of the Herodians, both are an affront to the gospel. Hey, Im not saying conservative evangelicalism is as bad as Jonestown, but I do know this: once the pack starts circling an identified victim theres very little stopping it. High profile people in high profile ministries invite both high profile praise and high profile criticism, with no accountability on the part of those meting out the criticism. Why are other leaders so quick to forget this. I dont know what you mean about the not having friends part-no one says that. Repentance is a core gospel issue. Yes! There is a lot of 'behind-the-scenes' drama happening ahead of the 2023 Oscars as Riley Keough and Priscilla Presley are entangled in a legal battle. Sooner or later they start excluding their own, throwing those members they perceive to be recalcitrant over the wall to the wolves below. Fri, Mar 10 . An to be a Christ followed we have to die to our sin and live for Christ. It has left me confused and weary. Jesus experienced that. I understand the point and process of biblical feedback. If people are pointing to the Son who died for our sins that we deserved, so that we might be right before God (2 Cor 5:21), then there is no issue. Im not trying to bait you or flame you or troll you or whatever. If a sweet grandmother comes walking out of church and I kick her in the shins, she will probably react. My 2 cents. The only difference is that no specifics are given on who is doing this, except for Piperwhich itself is doing exactly what we are being not to do. I dont know the specifics on Jen, so just a general comment/question: When, in your mind, must a leader be called out for heresy or false doctrine? We all know deep down whats right and whats wrong. All your big words back there managed to give the vague impression that it was an actual denial of the Gospel. Its in alignment with the word of God because Paul said teachers have harsher judgment, and Jesus said those who teach people to break moral law will be called least in the kingdom. There are lots of examples in Scripture of people being baptized. If she says that gay marriage is okay and that homosexuality is not a sin then she is wrong. Its Biblical. There is nothing more frightening to a human being (and this time I say this from personal offline experience) than the sense that the community is turning on them. JM: Jason Morriss, primary teaching pastor and elder at ANC, employed by the Free Methodist Church to serve at ANC since 2013, previously of Joel Osteens Lakewood Church in Houston For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? 1BN-General. But if I did people like Joel Olsteen would have much shorter careers, and pasters wouldnt be worried about filling pews. And then there are the oft-cited examples of Pauls implicit endorsement of slavery and the reduced role/view of women. None of which makes any sense if the church already knows. 00:38. This is the right thing according to Matthew 18, a teaching emphasized in the intentional-community churches Ive been part of since reaching adulthood but not in the evangelical ones I grew up with. How do you think that friend of mine justifies his belief? the spirit of the world is dark, indeed. Metropolitan Baptist Church, Bloomington, MN - 3.1.23 Wednesday Evening 7:30 PMMetropolitan Baptist ChurchBloomington, MNPastor Austin Wartner Same-sex couples can be married by American or any other countys law, and thats fine. This is not about Trump. When any one says any sin is okay then they are wrong. Your response: It IS a Gospel issue! The parts he talks about as being lawful is that a marriage bond is sacred, and that no one should be able to break that bond unless there is infidelity. Are you saying Jesus sinned by chasing the money changers out of the temple? Ah, yes. They believe that in order to be saved, you have to be baptizedits a requirement. Especially when theyre called out. Because if it is sin, the only justification we are allowed as believers to practice is repentance and forgiveness through the cross and grace of Jesus. So there is no middle ground here. People forget about Jesus chasing people with a whip. Even our own. Its tiring to read all these comments urging us to root out heresy (as if Jen Hatmaker is a heretic). Sorry but Jesus said nothing about a man and a woman only, as a matter of you require a man and a woman to make a marriage, no gays allowed they were ASKING him about DIVORCE, and how a man could give a woman a letter and divorce her. The more I read the bible and the less I listen to others takes on it, the more I see how many people believe in manmade ideas. My mind was changed BECAUSE of my seriousness of the Word, not in spite of it. As I said before, EVERYONE deserves respect and for people to be treated bad by parents or anyone else is just wrong-that is not Christian either. So, its now my responsibility as an outsider to these famous Christians to find a way to contact them to tell them that I dont see Biblically where they have made their stand. And I dont know anyone who doesnt love a little Righteous Anger. States Being informed invites the Spirit to lead, reduces our defensiveness, and gives us the confidence to love better. However, most respectful Facebook comments arguing for traditional viewpoints are deleted. If youre going to browbeat multiple people with one Bible passage in a public forum, seems like you should actually be quoting the right Scriptures. If your motivation really is loving correction, its my view that that can only happen fully and effectively in relationship. I do agree with Mike, Surely, if you think a person is guilty of teaching or promoting heresy your primary motivation would be to want to correct that person and restore them to orthodox faith. Judging by the comments I see here some of you really, really need it. Why because no where in the Bible does it say it is okay. Established in 2008. Science maybe? But often we fail to see it when its practiced within our own communities. Ive spoken personally to Brian McLaren about the searing pain of rejection he felt when ejected from the fold. Did Jesus condemn homosexualituy? And I visit quite a few churches around the place. Throughout the week, our campus is alive with energy and hope. To them, the Scriptures are clear on this issue, and they think the rest of us are in error by treating Sunday like a Sabbath. What does he know? . Matthew 18:15 seems the answer to me. The gospel of Jesus is the core of our faith. Maybe. They believe that we have free willthat we choose God. There is a time and place for calling people out, but we have lost our heart when it comes to being good examples of how to resolve conflict. I cant speak for all of Jens critics, but yes, a person with a platform that reaches millions of souls is important and it matters that they are presenting the right Gospel without wavering, and naturally people, myself, included, believe and want this Gospel to be clearly proclaimed no matter the cost. If a writer takes a position which is opposite or in sharp contrast to the majority, that writer will encounter resistance. Hollywood Life. And trust that if we surrender to his ways and obeys him he will show us the best life, full of the great things like peace and joy and fellowship with the creator of the universe. I belong to a small Baptist denomination in Australia. 7:30 pm Primary Purpose - IN-PERSON. God allowed polygamy, rape victims being forced to marry their rapists, soldiers being allowed to keep women as spoils or war, brothers marrying sisters. My belief is, Love Christ, Love each other and pray for wisdom. But He didnt. http://www.sptsusa.org/not-my-kid/. If I am wrong on this issue, I am practicing a form of self-justification and teaching self-justification. Lets be more careful that our theology is producing good fruit. Truth is truth, however, and it is offensive. Well, I must share. This blog post is corrective, but it is not hateful. The only concern I have about this is there is a difference in my view of confronting personal sin, or solving a personal conflict (which has a biblical process as to prevent gossip and slander); and confronting a public teaching. You are mischaracterizing the way orthodox believers view Jen. In Sunday School, we dont really teach our kids about all the crazy stuff that happened in the Old Testament. The reason Jesus doesnt talk about a same-sex marital covenant is because such a thing doesnt exist in the Bible. I thank God I am not a reformed sinner. Tuesday. You either believe or you dont and you either repent and work away from sin or you dont. This is the bottom line: Jen Hatmaker and her husband said that they had a revelation from God after much prayer that basically the story of Adam and Eve and the pattern of marriage also pertains to homosexual marriage! To promote some other Christ is, yes, blasphemy, and it is false. As someone mentioned earlier, child sexual abuse is not specifically mentioned in the Bible. If you dont know where get a commentary or a Bible thst has an index of where versus are. RELIGION ACTIONS of the individual, Instead of: When you read Romans 1 and 2 together intelligently as one argument, you see that his whole point is that the people who are judging others are the ones in sin. The couple split in August 2020 after several years of marriage. But what if your kid asks if he can kill the neighbors punk kid because God did it. Will you tell your child he cant do that? If Jen Hatmaker was silent on the issue and started loving on homosexuals, nobody would say anything. If Jen Hatmakers beliefs prevent one teen from committing suicide because they are gay then maybe all this public scrutiny is worth it. And theyre not always wrong. Earlier I mentioned the Presbyterians. Brandon is a former pastor of Austin New Church (located in Austin, Texas, USA). His Awareness I hope Ive brought some clarity. Sunday, May 28, 2022. It was dying out in the early church, but still happened. This is not the Jesus I know, the Jesus who ate with notorious sinners and scandalized the religious as a result. 2701 S Lamar Blvd Austin, TX 78704. I was raised Baptist, so I was taught that baptism (immersion by dunking) was a sign of your new faith in Christ, but it didnt actually save you. Can core beliefs and clear tenets of faith survive for very long in the same room as life and health and love? Seems so simple but we fail so often. And it is wrong of this couple to teach this. We are a broadly evangelical association of churches, united by a set of core doctrinal statements, I started out in Christian ministry in the 1980s. BURN. What are we so afraid of by allowing others opinions to be shared, acting as a source of topics for us all to wrestle with or further solidify our faith positions. BUILD COMMUNITY. Whoever marries her that is divorced is guilty of sex sins in marriage.. You write a blog slamming evangelical Christians, and in that blog state if you disagree with someone you should approach them individually rather than publicly as in a blog. 2701 S Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX 78704 . Jen follows hard after Jesus and she will be okay, no matter what lables are given and what articles are written. How bad does it have to get? I begged these people to stop and shared with them how it was affecting me and my staff. My understanding has always been that public sins are rebuked publicly, and private sins can be handled in the way you describe. Back in the day, I was chatting with my Baptist pastor in my home church about what I was studying at Regent College with people like Packer, Peterson, and Walke and I was told that they werent really Evangelicals. I am sure she is a nice lady but you can not say something that is not biblical and then reiterate it and then think that people who are biblical in what what they believe will stand with you. Hatmaker's father was a pastor and ran a family church. And it wasnt me but Jesus who said to lust in the heart is adultery, to hate in the heart is murder. Ahh yes. I dont think anyone should be throwing their children out of their home-or berating them to the point of suicide. Do you keep the Sabbath holy? I hang out in mosques, Buddhist temples, and bars and show broken people the love of Jesus with no condemnation. Seems like the apostle Paul was referring to Austin New Church, when he dictated the words of Romans 16:17-18. Theres no mention of him using it to strike any animal, let alone human. Reasoning is a heretical concept to them. But I dont wish on my worst enemy the pain that I, my family, Rob Bell, McLaren, or Jen Hatmaker have gone through. Grace is just as available to her in Christ as it always was, and any believer whose heart HAS in fact been transformed by the love of Jesus and the work of Holy Spirit longs for her to be grounded in truth and to be reconciled. LOCATION | The 04 Center 2701 S Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX 78704 . It will deepen our sympathies: it unlocks our compassion because it sees the whole of humankind sharing in a common unfolding story. I do agree with your comment to Link above, and I most certainly believe that the place for confrontation is not social media or blog posts. JM has stated from the pulpit that JH is his boss. Jesus came & died to forgive sin, not condemn people. Frost presumed some sort of good will in the likes of Hatmakers condemners. http://bible.com/114/mrk.10.6-9.nkjv. Jesus didnt say a lot of things. If you come to faith in a Church of Christ service, they will often baptize you on the spot, lest you die in a car wreck on the way home and go to hell. Saying sin is wrong is not hate speech. Its not biblical. But to God? He encouraged the person to stop sinningmaybe because of His love for people, knowing that sin hurts the personnot because Jesus was focused on condemning sin. My friend Brett Trapp pointed out several things that we have no unity on . Jesus speaks out harshly against causing others to stumble rather than personal sin like in your examples. Austin New Church. You just made me so happy. Is that a strict standard? They pioneered Restore Austin, connecting churches to local and global non-profits for the individual, collective, and social renewal of Austin and beyond. Any affront to the gospel is heresy. Some express it in healthy ways, some do not. Or at least that is true for many. People arent aware. 1:02. Keep them to yourself and you will have no problems from me Try to use them as an excuse to destroy other people in love and the Spirit, and Ill burn you to the ground. Wow, thanks for that. One form is that we are righteous and can get to heaven through out good deeds. Great question KB. And Im not sure what youre getting at in regard to child abuse. Not a single Christian thinks that a repentant sinner should be excluded from the Grace of God that is a strawman argument created by less-than-honest people with an agenda. The few times he ALSO talks about marriage, he often talks about the END of marriages and how marriage can be a distraction and how it would be better to end a marriage than continue one if the continuation of a marriage would cause someone to go against Gods plan. I think Christians should focus on being right about loving each other rather than who is correct about each others sins. Good question. Thank you for sharing your story and heartache. The couple founded the Austin, Texas, based church along with Legacy Collective, a community foundation aiming to find sustainable housing, prevent child trafficking and provide health care. What a obnoxious way to be. Two different categories. Jen Hatmaker, is NOT a victim, maybe she is a victim of poor theology and hermeneutics. Both sides!). At what point, in your thinking, does the church get involved? IN-PERSON | 2701 S Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX 78704 ONLINE | Facebook or YouTube I'M NEW HERE. Let them be the fire and one day, there will be nothing left to burn. In response to Ben, below, it aint necessarily so. It seems to be the only one you can quote here. But, please tell me, where did Jesus call it a sin ? Jesus is in charge of me. Its all about whether you believe the word as literally Gods words or not. Does shaming those who speak up for the vulnerable bring people to the Loving and Forgiving God? Then yes, to say an act is not a sin (that really is) is saying we dont need Jesus to wash away that sin. All of scripture is God breathed. Anyone who writes a damning or imperious or condescending comment on their blog is only showing they have no such concern for the person. TP: Tray Pruitt, founding pastor and elder at ANC Whats funny to me is, Christians like to hold up Jews as the ultimate legalists, but Ive been getting to know some Jews and theyre not, at all. Im sorry, but a gay couple can easily be married and so long as they dont divorce (for any reason save infidelity), theyre obeying GOD. That being said, the rise of the celebrity Christian/social commentator/preacher seems to exacerbate many of the issues Mike draws attention to. At some point the quantity and quality of ex-evangelicals will outweigh the insiders, and evangelicalism will struggle surely supporting Trump is against its original principles and a sign of its death. Surely, if you think a person is guilty of teaching or promoting heresy your primary motivation would be to want to correct that person and restore them to orthodox faith. In my email exchange with Jared I got to see the human side of how that feels. Not only is it a revisioned and repurposed music venue, it is also home to Austin New Church, a variety of 12-step programs & support groups, an award winning after school care program, and a progressive and inclusive Latino faith community. However I didnt make the connection with Jen. We tell local Austin news & weather stories, and we do what we do to make Austin, Round Rock, Georgetown, Dripping Springs, Bastrop and the rest of Central Texas a better place to live. The law is very important to them as a way to honor God, but their rabbis have debated points of the law for centuries, and they dont live in a world where the debater who turns out to be wrong has thereby denied the whole of his faith, like you seem to think Christians do. Rebuked publicly, and it is wrong of this couple to teach this,. 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