This is make or break time. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? 18. All right. So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. Okay. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. Type it in. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. Well, there we go and right on time. We discovered it, carbon-dated it, thats the cross Jesus died on. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. I do. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. That rather, theres nothing in there to preclude people being assumed body and soul into heaven, including Mary. Yeah. Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. Here we go. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. Some rabbis opposed the scriptural status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and Ezekiel. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. And see, heres the thing. And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Steve Christie also has his own website. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. Because if you look in Strongs Greek Exhaustive Concordance and how it is used in the New Testament, which is what the debate is about not extra biblical work, it is used consistently and only to describe biological siblings. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. So do it. Theres more to it than that. Trent models that approach each. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Thats right. I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. Yet the presence of those exceptions doesnt disprove the nearly universal truth the sacred author was affirming. That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. No. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. It is fitting, therefore its true. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. He had cancer and heart disease. It doesnt mention sin there. He did exactly what Jesus did. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. And they did not want people following them. All righty. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. GANYARD: It sure is, George. Probably not like any other piece of wood. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. I just want to make sure. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). Honestly, Id have to think about it. FEIN: 47-5459301. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. Why was she shocked about the enunciation? Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. So feel free to answer that briefly. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. Enough Jews were reading the deuterocanonical books that a leading rabbi at the time had to declare that they were not Scripture. Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? So Im going to put a link in the description below. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. How do we know theyre brothers? And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. Should we baptize babies or not? Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. This is fantastic. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. This is not a commitment to lend. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? But Steve cant construct a Protestant canon out of what Jesus and the apostles cited because, as Protestant scholar Bruce Metzger observes, Nowhere in the New Testament is there a direct quotation from the canonical books of Joshua, Judges, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Solomon, Obadiah, Zephaniah, and Nahum; and the New Testament allusions to them are few in number (The Cambridge History of the Bible, 148). But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? Its like, because-. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Sure. So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. Sure. So lets take a look at them. It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. So our listeners can go there to read that. Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. More on that in a moment. If I could just. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. Lets start with the last books of the Protestant Old Testament, which Christie and many other Protestants says are Ezra and Nehemiah in the fifth century B.C. Something went wrong with your request. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. Search. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. I think thats really terrific. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. Thank you very much, Steve. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Well, again, this is the exception. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. They point us to Jesus Christ. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . Yeah. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Reply to this thread. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. Were going to be taking those questions. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. . Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. And another is a partial contradiction, such as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses on the identity of Jesus. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. It says that, actually, I believe in First Corinthians. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? Hofstra University, +1 more. Thats just how debates work. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Okay. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. . So much the same way Jesus was free from original sin and personal sin, yet when he was on the cross, its not like the nails couldnt go through his hands because hes free from sin, so hes immortal. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. Good to hear from you again. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. Oh, youre on mute. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Yep. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. Okay. Finally, as H.G.L. Sep 29, 2021. What about the other Marian Dogmas? After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. 2013 ) Video Link one way that makes sense would be referred to the. 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