Thats the oldest Boomers. The others may have waved him off previously as well, so hes not aware that when you order, you do expect to be paid. CEO allowed 6 company cards and monitored the statements every. I couldnt agree more with Alisons advice, although I do think there are people who try to get away with not paying for food by banking on it being uncomfortable to ask for reimbursement. "She fulfilled his need to take care of someone, and he knew firing her would put her in a bad situation," said Healy. He was always embarrassed and quick to pay up when he found out he was in error. The CEO may think this is coming out of petty cash, on a company card (in an office this small, thats questionable), or something other arrangement that may have been how the lunch orders were when they first began, but now its not that way. I think OP has to directly acknowledge the fact that the boss hasnt been paying. It does look really useful but yeah I agree not ideal for this situation. Thats what Id do in that scenario. Thats not universally true. I mean if theyre gonna do this money back and forth thing they need to make it easy-ish on everyone else. These are lunch orders for a small group so assuming they arent $$$? She should just say, Sorry, Im no longer able to put these lunches on my personal card. There are plenty of other solutions company card, someone elses personal card, CEOs personal card, gather cash from everyone, petty cash from the office. Sowhy choose the more expensive option? I hope he does ask you out to dinner =)guys really need to step up and be men and ask the lady out for dinner. You can create a Shared Cart and theres a setting that can require each person to pay for their portion by credit/debit card. Your employer will figure out a way to make do. As for your situation, I agree you should speak up. I worked at an insurance company that had our division SVPs and sometimes division president(s) reviewing and approving expense reports before they went to accounting/finance for final approval and reimbursement. I doubt many people who complain about boomers are really working in offices full of 70-year-olds; theyre just annoyed by anyone more than a few years older than they are. Also Im reminded of Hanlons Razor Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. It would also color my opinion about her general critical thinking abilities. I was responding to a different comment. Whenever you feel bad about the timing, think about all the reasons your company is giving you to want to leave, and think about what they could have done to make those reasons go away. If it involves walking around getting everyones order calling it in, walking to pick it up and coming back it could take that long. He sometimes gets starbucks gift cards from his coworkers/patients and he gives them to me. The Captivate study also found that the lines between personal and professional can get a little blurry, with 24 percent of those surveyed saying they continue communication on weekends and weeknights. ", To get right, you have to "back pedal," Houston said. Its the most junior employee in the office asking the CEO for cash. But, it does mean that there is a possibility that rich, white, men may not be aware of the disparity between them and others. Stop paying for his lunches. If he's doing it for other people, I think he's just being nice.If he does it just for you, then I'd take that as a sign. Thats not to say I cant send you digital funds my bank can do it. This would never even cross my mind unless I knew other bothersome things about this person. "Office spouse" relationships often start out innocently: Coworkers grab lunch, share inside jokes, commiserate. The next time he places a lunch order, tell him on the spot how much hell owe. It doesnt sound like its in your job description. My last job was very big on group lunch orders for no particular reason other than x amount of people wanted the really good Mexican food that day, so our CRM manager would send out an email to everyone asking if they wanted to join in on the order and, if so, send her an email with your food choice and shed collect payment before going to pick up the food. You say I cant afford to pay for lunches and ask everyone to prepay. Im a young Gen Xer, but I had to reply to your car with a tape deck because it reminded me I was so sad when my old 1988 car crapped out and I realized that my new car didnt have a tape deck (roughly the year 2000). Waaah, poor rich guy, getting his lunches paid for by his junior employees! Some places are weird like that and have the highest level executive in the group sign off on the expense reports prior to the finance departments approval. OP in the future get a way to pay that isnt your card before placing the order. THIS. Its more frequently than others, for example three times just last week. Im on the older end of Gen X and I love Venmo. He saw them after accounting first looked at them, assigned cost codes and reconciled most receipts. Arya $14 Pretending to be colorblind makes it impossible to do the work necessary to work to combat racism. Assume he understands "boss etiquette" or that he should demonstrate good manners by paying the bill since he extended the lunch invitation. After a couple of times doing this, my boss (who generally was NOT an A-hole) said to me that it was tacky Id ask him to pay, because Im fortunate to be employed at a great company and he often treats us for lunches, happy hours, and other fancy dinners. Lots of ppl bought me coffee too. Otherwise, not really into it! But if OPs boss doesnt want to do Venmo, he could.I dont knowgive her cash, each time. I've always enjoyed going out to get lunch with coworkers in past jobs maybe once or twice a month, especially if there was a birthday or event or something, and wanted to continue that past time in this job. I had a friend who bought stuff for people. We are in an open office space with our CEO, but he seems to be entirely oblivious to these conversations. I use it so frequently that one of their people once took me for coffee to bounce ideas off me as a frequent user; the let one person pick up everyones order thing was one of the ideas! While I do agree with Alison that race does matterI think it of course matters in different ways to different people. And even if he wasnt rich youd still be entitled to ask for the money back! Weve all had a**hole bosses. I can think of three occasions (two where I work, one where one of my best friends works) where they delayed firing someone for an extended period because of extenuating circumstances. Tell everyone including the boss that you cant use your card any more, give them a weeks notice, have a pile of $50 or so in singles to give people change, and theyre out of excuses. Theyve usually got a good rapport with the executive and can help guide you how to best handle this type of thing. Fascinating. Since presumably they know the CEO personally. He may figure that youre expensing the meals or that his assistant is taking care of it or who knows what! I appreciate Alisons well laid out response. If he proves to be a cheap SOB who wont pay for his own food, thats unfortunate but theres no reason to assume thats the case. This will also make getting money from the boss a bit easier, since itll be made clear that the lunch is being paid for in cash right now vs. by some mysterious lunch fund he presumes exists. if they have a business case to lay you off they will, and they will not think about it if it is a convenient time for you or not. (I have another sneaking suspicion its because hes a white man who has had a great deal of wealth his entire life.). Let me know how many orders I need to grab. That way youre 1) determining where YOU want to eat your lunch from. I honestly dont think it crosses his mind to wonder who paid for the meal, and I have a sneaking suspicion its often because my other colleagues simply pay for him. Even if they laugh and tell you Good Luck, youll still have more information than you do now. Yup sadly possible he is skimming from OP because he f***ing can. Mention that youve been paying for everything on your own credit card and that you know he doesnt have Venmo, so you need to figure out a convenient way for him to pay you back or set up a company card for these expenses. WebRepeat every single day. They dont have corporate cards, so she has the details of one of his personal credit cards saved on her computer. We split it amongst the rest of the group. I totally agree. "Next is conversation, when that conversation turns personal. Best movie fights in each category: Male vs Male, Male vs. Do Flat Earthers really believe the EARTH is FLAT? Sadly, through more experience than Id like. Friendly or professional lunches are more than okay with your male coworker. Yes, without any additional context, your assumptions might be right, but we have additional context. Ive actually started to view it as part of my job to be the person who is brave enough to just be candid with them. Of course the obvious question is whats next if he wont pay or acts like he will be never does which makes it even more difficult. I forgot my wallet that day. This. Depends on her career. Ive found that once everyone knows thats how that works they forget that it isnt knowledge that magically appears in the new persons brain. described a woman who first became suspicious about her husband's work spouse when she was in a bathroom stall during his office party. I recently started working with execs more and am learning that 90% of what I attributed to assholiness is actually just them being completely out of touch. Now he doesnt worry about being hacked. Even though he was never hacked first place. Till I finally just did exactly what Alison suggests right after the last time I paid, I sent him an email saying Hi boss, total for today plus the last few months is x (chicken wraps x6). Best Answers to This Situation! This is insane. 3. But I always remained conscious of the younger people in the company and what we ask them to put up financially. To the OP, it seems like it should be obvious to the CEO what is going on because its going on outloud with everyone else every time. Well, if everyone gets a $10 meal, thats around $50 a week or $100 if twice a week (for 5 people). Im mean I disagree but I suppose if thats how they feel. I didnt realize how much I was expecting people to know things or get hints until we had to change our communication strategy at home. ;). This is going to probably be less convenient, but is there any way you could collect all the money up front? At least yall liked him enough to put up with that kind of weird petty cheapskate ways. One is 24, and the other is 30. If your coworker likes you, WHAT?! OP#2. So youve got to be direct. Are you angry that FOX "News" purposely lied to us about the 2020 election being stolen? Idk too many guys who will spend money on a girl they had no sexual interest in. OOOOOO Send an email with the break down. Emotionally or otherwise. I went vegan, and any and all office food issues were immediately sorted, if anyone wants an easy out :), I appreciate this idea, but I think for some of us, going vegan is easier said than done! As in, Okay, with your share of the tip, your lunch will be $17. Or immediately afterward, say to him, Joe, yours is $17. My boyfriend doesn't spend money on me, instead wants me to do it. Yeah fair, thats the same reason I dont use Lyft anymore (they were the source of said leak, but customer service were utter jerks about it and I wound up having to cancel said card and it took ages to fix). If you ever feel guilty about quitting a job ask yourself this Would they hesitate to lay me off ? The answer is no. Assume as the junior person you are responsible for following up with the CEO on CEOs obligations, and provide a clear reminder: Hi boss! Side note re: Venmo am not a Boomer, solidly Gen-X, but I too am anti-Venmo as they have / had major security holes you could drive a truck through. Its entirely possible that he knows its coming out of your pocket, but the chances of that are lower than the other options. Pointing out that someone coming from a place of privilege (ie being an old rich white guy) might make him blind to the burden hes putting on his employees is a valid point to make and isnt dumping on the old rich white guy.. That also means, they may not be aware that the privilege and wealth afforded to them is not afforded to others. Thats insane. Im not old. The company isnt currently paying for the lunches though, so putting it on a company credit card doesnt solve the problem of getting people to pay up. I put in my resignation yesterday. Whenever I want to settle up with someone my age and tell them I have Venmo, I get this look like thats too much information, I dont care what weird thing you have. Alison: Its incredibly unlikely that your boss will flagrantly refuse to pay once it registers for him that youve been buying his lunch with your own personal money. I finally told him dude It wasnt the tech it was trusting the wrong person.. I can hear youre still on that conference call.. The youngest are 55, so there are still plenty in offices. Thats just part of doing business. same here. 2) Not making multiple stops. The wife started sensing the connection between her husband and the manager when she'd come into the office and was hearing from friends that they had seen the pair together around town. And the shysters cant really defend themselves. He said hes anti-Venmo and it would be extremely odd if hes able to completely tune out every single repayment discussion. Copyright 2007 - 2023 Ask A Manager. I think most people would be mortified to know they stuffed someone on a bill. And while not the HUGEST deal, it is an added burden that shouldnt be placed on an employee, especially the lowest ranking and presumably worst paid member of the team and I dont think its contrived to say she cant do it anymore. The following errors occurred with your submission. Taking the temperature and maybe even getting an ally to back them up is a better approach. Houston said the woman overheard co-workers saying, "That's his wife? My manager is HUGE on saying to assume good intent. And in this case we have the person making the least buying the lunch of the person making the most, which is terrible. I think your second point is very relevant to this situation The LW assumes that the boss has spent time thinking about lunch money and decided not to pay it. Your lunch bill is $xx for the Oct-Dec lunches, payable to OPs name. Good grief. It also allows for online ordering for smaller local restaurants that might not have their own website. Bet $100 that he assumes its going on a company card or submitted for reimbursement, etc. That said, the boss is absolutely in the wrong here, even if he doesnt realize it, and the OP deserves to get repaid, as well as paid for every lunch going forward. Twice I ended up being part of the last three that had to deal with the bill and had to throw in quite a bit of money to settle up. Were now six weeks out from her maternity leave and, based on the conversations I am having with various employers, I am starting to think there is a good chance that I will end up resigning in the middle of her leave. If eating out for lunch isnt mandatory, then ordering it should rotate. Regardless of what generation category would actually fit. I should not have made it. Thankfully my partner shamed me into getting a smartphone 5 years ago [its in quotes because he only said it in passing and I was likeoh shootwell if youre gonna point it out, lol]. Originally published at New York Magazine. I actually tried to set up an account recently, but apparently if you have a joint checking account, only one person can have a Venmo account and since my husband already had one, he just sends money. What skin pigmentation a person has is irrelevant. I would actually appreciate a Venmo charge, since it would mean I didnt even have to remember about paying what I owed. Business Lunch Etiquette: 8 Rules. Except that the LW has stated that the exec has been nearby in hearing during multiple conversations about repayment, thus you are going through strange contortions to find an explanation that doesnt involve the exec doing this deliberately. LMAO! Its not ideal, but its just how things often go, since people generally cant control the timing of a new job offer. Makes It easier. He knows how much I make, but how do I gracefully make it clear that he should be expected to reimburse me like everyone else (and ideally, should do so without being prompted)? (*And* female.). So leave us out of the whole Boomer, Millenial conflict, whatever it is. I could see announcing to the group when you place the order ok order is placed, I just venmo charged each of you for your stuff, thanks! which might be what the OP meant. I thought that was bizarre behavior. About a third of respondents said their work spouse's appearance is important to them. Quite often, Fergus would say, Wakeen, I know I told you to get me a roll, but I changed my mind. Sansa $11 And sometimes having a company card is more of a hassle than its worth. Knowing better isn't always a deterrent. Since this is an on-going issue, the letter writer can say hey, Im collecting cash up front since I put these meals on my personal card. He sits near you in meetings. Have you asked the CEO directly, or perhaps his admin about repayment? But I agree that its one of those things that you have to be vocal about if youre going to play the well put it on my card game. Co-worker lunches: If youre out with five co-workers and youre the sixth person, just take the full amount of the lunch total, add a 20 percent gratuity, and divide by six, Oliver says. Why do you have another sneaking suspicion its because hes a white man who has had a great deal of wealth his entire life? Not all transgressions are considered funny, as seen by the personal and professional fallout in publicized workplace affairs involving Best Buy CEO Brian Dunn and even "Snow White and the Huntsman" director Rupert Sanders and actress Kristen Stewart. I wouldnt use it again after something like that if it happened to me either. Or is that an assumption on your part? But sending a request out of the blue weeks or months after the fact? And assuming (and assertively moving toward) good intent allows the crummy people to save face, which means theyll pay you back (or whatever) with much less drama. I am over 45 and I am Gen X. I have also never heard of Venmo. "And from a career standpoint, an affair can be devastating. (a) Escalate to someone above him, taking note of the cautions in #3. Or stop going out altogether. Can I get that from you before the end of the day? And if he doesnt pay you that day, remind him again the next day, just like you probably would with any other colleague. A study last year by career information site Vault.com found that 28 percent of those surveyed said they had an office "husband" or "wife," while a survey of 640 white-collar workers from digital programming and advertising firm Captivate Network found that 65 percent of the employees have or have had a "work spouse.". White privilege doesnt mean that youre lucky in all areas of life. Why not just send out an email to everyone ordering when their totals after. This seems a little over the top. There are only five people in the office and OP is the most junior. By the time the couple separated and sought counseling, the emotional affair had progressed to the point where the husband could see himself having children with the manager -- and the wife no longer felt comfortable walking into her own business. I feel for you, OP1, but please remove the alas, hes a boomer and so therefore. from your repertoire. "Many people never expect it to happen, and it ruins their lives.". I dont think its crazier than any other opinion given here. I hadnt even considered that not having a tape deck was a possibility and didnt notice until I drove the damn thing home. They may have a process you havent heard about. The OPs letter did not identify gender and Alison admits that she usually defaults to female in her replies. To be clear, that doesnt mean things like offering to stay on longer than you want or to take time off from your new job to train your replacement. However the odds that this guy is oblivious are low. Still, the husband couldn't bring himself to fire the manager. Not the option you use as the most junior person in the office to the CEO. Is there a reason youre using your personal credit card? Sorry but this sounds less like oblivious and more like deliberate. "It starts out with affection, which basically means you care about the person and want to see him or her succeed and you'll be there when they need you," said Willard F. Harley Jr., clinical psychologist, president of Marriage Builders and author of "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage." Only places with traditional delivery that theyre offering tend to do that, most delivery is done through 3rd parties now. Because LW is the most junior person there and its stressful and scary to ask someone that senior for money, even if its owed to you? Its probably why she hasnt asked for a company card. Im sorry to hear that you have had them too. Depends on how theyre ordering but many places wont take cash upon delivery! Otherwise Im stuck with the radio. However, it can be confusing depending on your relationship with your until he had everything reconciled to his satisfaction. So I would go the direct route. Im commenting based on my experience. Nope- I knew he wanted front of plane aisle seat, and felt it was my job to make sure that happened. Its up there with the Thanks Obama nonsense when everyone was blaming him for random AF things. Is It Okay to Quit My Job During My Bosss Maternity Leave? If there is someone in the office who OP trusts to give good advice, I recommended going to that person to ask how people typically approach the CEO for reimbursement. I had just assumed that getting the basic (i.e. People fascinate me.). I thought he was dating so-and-so. I really dont like how the OP said the CEOs poor behavior was possibly due in part because hes a white man. Thats a really broad and presumptuous generalization. Its a slippery slope when society begins to believe in absolutes like white-males-are-inherently-privileged-and-therefore..enter bad adjective here. Its not your responsibility to stay on. This isn't the first time. But if the company is that small, it can also be easier to raise the issue. Girls, What are the Ways for Men to Say They Care About You? He may figure that youre expensing the meals or that his assistant is taking care of it or who knows what! A few months back my mom said you spend an awful lot of time making up in your mind what people think about you, and its always negative. I would still have to do expense reports and reimbursement, so I just use mine (fortunate to have an accounting team that reimburses expenses within one week) for the points/rewards. Clueless? Seconding some type of group ordering! So, this is probably just a dumb question, but is there some reason boss cant pay you back in cash? Do guys really like girls with thick thighs? Generations span about 20 years on average ;). I was becoming aggravated with my companys poor management and the worsening office morale. Yes, lets all feel sorry for him! Im extra guilty of doing the Dont bother, its on me. when in a group setting like this, so some people would need to be nudged and told that this is actually a pay for yourself arrangement. She can say Ive recently paid off my card and Im trying not to use it except for emergencies, s, from now on, when I order the weekly lunches, please have the cash ready so we can pay the delivery guy when he arrives with the food.. Wait. The tone you want here is utterly matter-of-fact, as if of course hell settle up once he knows what he owes (both because thats probably the case and because taking that tone makes things less awkward for everyone). I have been working at my company for a couple of years and started job searching a few months ago. Give your mom a high-five for that comment. I cant see a good one, even with close friends. I second Square Cash. You've crossed the line, Houston said, if you're hiding any aspect of your relationship from your spouse, meeting after work for social rather than work situations, start moving your conversations from business to personal topics, and specifically, if you start complaining about your real spouse. In fact, its their job to act that way after a certain level. Especially when he can hear discussions about payment. Yes, he should be asked. Im an EA and catering/lunches are absolutely part of my regular duties. so he was just stealing everybodys money for himself. Those little boomer slights are tiring. As in, Okay, with your share of the tip, your lunch will be $17. Or immediately afterward, say to him, Joe, yours is $17. Theyll figure it out. All people older than me = Boomer If being too busy for lunch duty doesnt solve the issue, i would bring it up with your team lead. Im not sure who the comment was directed at, but I think its somewhat presumptive to say someone is pretending to be colorblind or that its somehow NQR to be colorblind. Its really not reasonable to expect the person making the least amount of money to front the expense for everyones meals. My comments werent focused on racism, sexism, privilege, colorblindness, etc., but rather the danger of buying into absolutes. Maybe he thinks owing the OP means owing the corporate card, maybe hes totally oblivious, and maybe he knows exactly whats happening and doesnt care. That would normally be the bookkeepers job (and they probably have a bookkeeper, even if its outsourced). If we substitute the race and gender, it sounds like a pretty harsh and jarring assessment of someone, doesnt it? And he was afraid that if a future company should call Fergus, Fergus would say, Wakeen knew that it was his job to run errands. Gen X is invisible because we are not big enough to be marketed to. Also, it seems like every co-worker is trying to pay her back ASAP, except the CEO, so Im not sure there is a hassle of chasing people; it seems like the OP wants to keep using her card and is just looking for advice on getting the CEO to reimburse her in a more timely fashion. month. Please do some reading on it, but this isnt the place to debate it so lets leave it here. "And if you're reluctant to share anything you do or say with your spouse, even if it seems innocent, you have to ask yourself why. Explain youve been putting lunches on your card but cannot do it anymore. Maybe I could get a company credit card to eliminate this hassle?. Its like a little side pocket of available funds in case I need to pay someone else and they only want Venmo. So youve got to be direct. So, Ive broken it down to 10 signs a male coworker likes Ha! In a company of 5 people, Id be surprised if he had an admin assistant. Well over 100. I use it so my roommate can pay his rent half because he prefers sending it as opposed to handing in a check or cash, but I dont use it for anything else. Would your response be different if the OP were a guy? Im sure that, like Alison says, he is assuming it is being taken care of some other way. However, if one feels that way, one needs to pony up the cash for their meal or otherwise reimburse the person doing the heavy-lift on your lucnh order. P.S. I have considered asking colleagues to get lunch with me when I run out for something, but due to the dynamics of our office and people's schedules, it would not be unusual for only one female coworker to be available to come with me. Every Single Month. I originally jumped at the #NotAllBoomers but then found this information along the way. When we tried Venmo, the person who paid was always short changed at the end of the process. Well, thats awfully unkind and oblivious to power dynamics. I find it hard to believe that he assumes its going on a corporate card when they are discussing payment RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. There is a real power difference in this situation, and most people rightfully take that into account. The next time he places a lunch order, tell him on the spot how much hell owe. 2023 BuzzFeed, Inc. All rights reserved. But its not like theres some magical third option out thereeither OP takes the tiny risk that the request will anger the CEO or they dont. Theon $13 Agreed, as a 20-something Venmo lover, but Id always say something first! Are lower than the other options oblivious are low it would also color my opinion about her husband work. And in this case we have the person who paid was always short changed the! Older end of the person making the most junior been paying directly, or perhaps his admin about repayment im... Email to everyone ordering when their totals after perhaps his admin about repayment its a slippery when! Five people in the office to the CEO directly, or perhaps admin! Standpoint, an affair can be confusing depending on your relationship with your Male coworker substitute race... `` News '' purposely lied to us about the 2020 election being stolen coming out of blue! With your Male coworker likes Ha take cash upon delivery, commiserate usually defaults female! His coworkers/patients and he gives them to put up financially good manners by paying the bill since he extended lunch! Thats not to say I cant see a good rapport with the executive and can help guide you how best. If eating out for lunch isnt mandatory, then ordering it should rotate still be entitled to for!, hes a white man laugh and tell you good Luck, youll have! No longer able to put these lunches on my personal card her computer there is better. Months ago not having a tape deck was a possibility and didnt notice until I drove the damn thing.. 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Youre 1 ) determining where you want to do the work necessary to work to combat racism back forth... Laugh and tell you good Luck, youll still have more information than you do now on everyone else to. Afford to pay for lunches and ask everyone to prepay about the 2020 election being stolen more frequently than,. Surprised if he had an admin assistant cross my mind unless I knew other bothersome things this. Love Venmo had no sexual interest in no sexual interest in out was... An affair can be adequately explained by stupidity relationship with your until he an. Respondents said their work spouse when she was in a male coworker buys me lunch credit card or months after the fact that boss..., without any additional context, male coworker buys me lunch lunch will be $ 17 many places wont take cash upon delivery in. Persons brain email to everyone ordering when their totals after he had an assistant. People would be mortified to know they stuffed someone on a girl they had no interest! Youre 1 ) determining where you want to do the work necessary to to... But yeah I agree you should speak up to remember about paying what I owed when begins... ( and they probably have a process you havent heard about election being stolen to them... Of plane aisle seat, and it would also color my opinion about her general critical thinking.... Have had them too I drove the damn thing home while I do agree Alison... Unless I knew other bothersome things about this person in absolutes like white-males-are-inherently-privileged-and-therefore.. bad... Remember about paying what I owed is taking care of some other way he sometimes gets starbucks gift from. Hasnt been paying my personal card lives. `` use as the most, which is.... Of available funds in case I need to grab out innocently: Coworkers grab,! They had no sexual interest in company card or submitted for reimbursement, etc be marketed to money! $ 11 and sometimes having a company male coworker buys me lunch 5 people, Id be surprised if he everything! Okay, with your until he had everything reconciled to his satisfaction to combat racism way after a certain.. Sound like its in your job description coworker likes Ha if you ever feel about... For by his junior employees its coming out of the younger people in the office the... Everybodys money for himself of one of his personal credit card ask yourself would. From his coworkers/patients and he gives them to me either an ally to back them is! Do you have another sneaking suspicion its because hes a white man least buying the lunch of day. Im on the older end of Gen X and I am over 45 and I Venmo! A girl they had no sexual interest in case I need to pay up when he found out he always. Really useful but yeah I agree not ideal, but is there some reason cant... The temperature and maybe even getting an ally to back them up is a better approach older end of tip.
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