I don't really get why this sub is full of people that think everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. Polybutylene pipes were first produced in the mid-1970s. The seller may not want to take the home off the market to have the work done, which includes ripping out a lot of drywall, and there are a lot of properties with this kind of problem. McGarry and Madsen's home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built, mobile/manfuactured and modular homes. In this case, some buyers might demand you to replace the existing polybutylene pipes, and some might ask for a reduction in price so they can re-pipe the home after theyve bought it. What are the code requirements for plumbing vent terminations? investing 4. This enables you to turn the entire issue over to a buyer and walk away. That buyer will probably want to negotiate the asking price and reduce it because they have to replace the plumbing, costing them extra money. . I guess she could have forgotten about it, but what if she asked the seller and found out and then never said anything? What does polybutylene pipe look like? There is quite a common misconception that replacing polybutylene pipes costs a lot of money and is likely to break the bank. Our work is 100% guaranteed for life, and we are fully licensed in the states where we operate. Even if there is no doubt about what type of pipes you have, the condition cannot be determined by looking at the outside of the pipe. Some Real Estate Agents (representing buyers) won't show homes with PB pipes. PB-1 is a high molecular weight, linear, isotactic, and semi-crystalline polymer. Any other advice about this issue and how to handle it? We completed all our inspections (structural, septic, water, pest, home), the bank ordered the appraisal, the Realtor hired the attorney. Cross-Linked Polyethylene (PEX) is basically a plastic material used to make pipes for water systems in our houses. houses Polybutylene is a type of plastic potable water plumbing commonly found in many US homes built from the late 1970's through to the mid-1990's. Compared to copper, it was inexpensive, easy to install, and had several other advantages like being resistant to damage from freezing. Which Way to Go when Selling a Home with Polybutylene Pipes? Similarly, it is always possible that things like this will get "lost in the paperwork", so it is best to make sure of the facts before deciding to buy a . Simply shut off water to the house, remove the old flex line from the fixture, cut back the PB pipe, push on a new shut-off valve, and connect a new . Seriously. Just because a house has polybutylene pipes in place that have not yet failed doesnt mean everythings good and fine. Polybutylene is a type of plastic resin. The form's name, length, and required information vary by state . Is a washing machine drain hose required to be secured at the standpipe? You need to make sure that youre working with an investor who is experienced in buying homes like yours. Licensed Florida Independent Insurance Agent. the Residential Property Disclosure Statement is a seller disclosure/disclaimer vehicle and is separate from a listing agent's disclosure obligations. How can I tell if I have cast iron pipes in my house? This caused the pipes to deteriorate and become brittle on the inside. Either copper pipe or PEX tubing are suitable repipe materials, but we find the vast majority of our customers replace their poly pipes with PEX tubing. If you have time to sell but you dont have the funds to make the needed repairs, you will probably want to consider selling to an investor. However, polybutylene pipes have since proven too fragile to withstand chemicals found in the public water supply. In the meantime, leaks and water damage can result in mold growth and unhealthy conditions in your home. The price of PEX pipes ranges between $0.40 to $2.0 per linear foot, depending on the diameter of the pipe. Do you have to disclose polybutylene pipes to a homebuyer? Insurance companies dont look at these on a case-by-case basis. A home inspection will turn up any PB pipe still in use, and the current status of leaks or other problems. I'm a licensed Home Inspector, Certified Professional Inspector (CPI), Certified Master Inspector (CMI), and FHA 203k Consultant. Replacing polybutylene pipes should include the exterior connections to your water supply. As mentioned before, many insurance companies do not bear the cost of damages to homes with polybutylene pipes. Most of our repipes fall somewhere between $4,500 and $15,000. We will get it done for you. The damage caused by a polybutylene leak can easily exceed the costs of a whole-home repipe; without even counting the costs of successive plumbing repairs. Your average homeowner would not know polybutylene pipes from any other type of plastic plumbing. I've never heard of anyone spending $3000.00 on an inspection. In prior litigation, the industry behind polybutylene plumbing systems claimed failures were not due to the polybutylene tubing itself, but instead due to installation issues and inappropriate pipe connectors. Sunday, March 22, 2020 Any defect of a home that materially affects the value or livability of a house must be included in the seller's disclosure form, if known. No, you shouldn't buy a home with polybutylene pipes. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Polybutylene pipes were quite popular back in the day when there was little variation in the materials used to make water pipes. Along with durability, these pipes are also heat resistant which makes PEX pipes a great choice. Why is polybutylene piping bad? And how do you make sure that youre dealing with the right investor and the best offer? It is now mainly an academic exercise determining why a specific system failed and/or if an existing poly-b system may fail in the future. Now You Know. For this, you will need to start interviewing contractors and checking their references. This could potentially make you liable for lawsuits from your buyer. IANAL but, I doubt you have a case to get your inspection $$$ back. https://www.polybutylene.com/realtor.html. Heres links to a collection of our other blog posts about PLUMBING PIPES: How can I protect my pipes to keep them from bursting during a hard winter freeze in North Florida? Even though most potential buyers would hesitate to go for a house with polybutylene pipes, there are always specific buyers interested in it these type of properties, as we have discussed earlier. Pests. Does a Seller Have to Disclose Polybutylene Pipes? These variables . Code requirements cited may have been changed in a newer code edition, or may not yet be adopted in your area. If they don't agree, though, we are going to have to walk away. Whether it's snakes, mice, or bats, in most . loans The time that this will take from the initial inspection to the close of the sale of your home will probably range from 3 to 4 months. Theres no way to determine the polybutylene piping condition without removing it to examine how far the damage has gone thoroughly, but home inspectors and contractors wont do that. Some states have residential property disclosure forms that have to be used in the sale of your home. However, in some states, residential property disclosure forms have to be utilized when selling their home. They can handle most of the diligence themselves and are the only decision-maker involved on their side of the deal. Mold remediation - aside from the health risks associated with living in a moldy home - is intrusive and very expensive. The problem was that these pipes shortly began to fail in astounding numbers. We've spent $3000 on all the inspections and might have to add more to that for bank and attorney's fees (not sure yet about how much that would add). Polybutylene plumbing is bad because it breaks off into the water supply. However, other options are available, such as CPVC pipes and copper pipes. Additionally, it has become very common for sellers to either make concessions for a buyer to re-pipe after closing or to re-pipe the home themselves before the sale. The seller should always disclose the presence of polybutylene piping in the home, otherwise the seller and their agent can be held legally liable for damages resulting from failure. Of course, only specific insurance companies can answer that question, for your specific circumstances. These pipes were last used in new construction in the mid 90s and are now around 20 years old. How can I find out what type of water pipe runs underground from the water meter to the house (service pipe)? Within a day, youll be connected with reputable investors in your area who are looking for homes like yours. Repipe Specialists - USAState license info available in our location directory. Locating and working on existing pipes requires cutting holes in your walls. However, many insurance companies do not cover the damages caused to homes due to natural disasters or fires with polybutylene pipes. It was particularly widely used in the sunbelt states. Investors buy homes with cash. These minerals are a primary reason that contributes to the deterioration of the polybutylene pipes. Because polybutylene pipes will fail, it's just a matter of when it will happen. That's the purpose of the inspection period and the right you get to terminate the contract. Polybutylene pipe is a gray plastic tubing that was commonly used as a water-supply plumbing pipe between 1978 and 1995, at which time it was discontinued due to reports of pipes rupturing. There are many different water pipes available on the market that you can purchase to replace polybutylene pipes. What they do is they buy the property, which they can upgrade, make the required repairs, and then sell the homes making good profits on their investments. During my over 20-year real estate investing career, Ive dealt many times with properties having this problem. Historically, there has been quite a lot of litigation around polybutylene plumbing. However, copper pipes are exceptionally durable and, thus, will last a long time if you use these to replace fragile polybutylene pipes. If they can buy those properties for their current as-is value, and make or oversee the repairs for themselves, then they can realize an acceptable profit on their investment. Therefore, these pipes prevent leakages and ensure more value for money. Must have picked a poor agent and a poor home inspector, or gone carelessly without either. Call our residential repipe division to schedule a free estimate for your home: Or visit our regular residential repipe site to learn more: Repipe Specialists - USA245 E Olive Ave #500Burbank, CA91502. Water supply piping only, not used for drains or vents. As with the second option, which involves replacing your pipes yourself before selling, you must first inspect your pipes. even obtaining homeowners insurance even if the pipes don't cause any problems because there is such a stigma against these particular pipes. Within 10 years or less, homeowners started witnessing leaking or burst pipes and sometimes catastrophic damage from them. Even though polybutylene pipes are safe for drinking water, they will fail over time. https://www.polybutylene.com/realtor.html. Are Polybutylene Water Supply Pipes Bad? Visit ourPLUMBINGpage for other related blog posts on this subject, or go to the INDEX for a complete listing of all our articles. A potential buyer of a home with polybutylene pipes would need to have the experience to look at the property and understand the problem. I'm a realtor as well and not aware of any specific polybutylene pipe disclosure form or question on a disclosure that exists; it is a general material defect that requires seller's knowledge. National costs for these repairs are from $1,000 to $4,000 for water damage, and from $500 to $3,500 for mold removal or remediation. What you are complaining about is the process working. What's that powdery crust on the pipe connections at the water heater? As we mentioned earlier, banning polybutylene pipes causes them to become barriers to selling or buying a home. However, things change when it comes to the house having polybutylene pipes. Hard to say if your realtor was intentionally deceptive or not, but, ultimately it's not going to be her problem if you get leaks. Their business model is to purchase properties that they can repair or upgrade. Moreover, insurance professionals cannot be sure whether the pipes in your home are good or bad. How can I tell if I have cast iron pipes in my house? They seemed to be a perfect material for plumbing pipes because they were inexpensive and held up well under high water pressures. However, the total cost of repiping a house may be as high as $15,000 depending on a variety of factors. More information about the settlement is available at www.SpencerClass.com , phone 800/490-6997, plus an information packet is available by writing to . Once the pipe is old enough to have one or two hairline cracks, the cracks will keep increasing until it has many cracks, eventually becoming too fragile to hold its structure and breaks. Generally speaking however, we know insurance coverage for homes with poly piping has been a headache for many homeowners. I think you are correct to worry about it, and if she has those pipes in her house she's in denial that it won't impact her ability to sell at some point or cause her expensive repairs. Not sure a home has poly? Or perhaps your polybutylene plumbing sprung a leak, and you are trying to decide if you should repair or replace it? To find a minuscule crack in the polybutylene pipes, one would need a very efficient plumber, and even then, it would be not easy to identify. The problem became so widespread and the damages so severe that many insurance companies will refuse to issue a homeowners policy to a home with polybutylene pipes in place, or may write the policy to exclude any damage resulting from failure. Why is there a flexible accordion pipe under the sink? We perform many polybutylene repipe quotes for sellers planning a sale - or even for buyers, who want to factor repipe costs into their offers: even when there has been no history of PB pipe failures. 0 found this answer helpful | 0 lawyers agree Helpful Unhelpful << Does a home inspector look for code violations? Most of these forms require the seller to disclose information related to polybutylene pipes. Any defect of a home that materially affects the value or livability of a house must be included in the sellers disclosure form, if known. You could easily run afoul of these laws if you arent forthcoming about polybutylene pipes in your home. Contact us by phone or email with any questions, or to schedule a no-obligation in-home (or remote) consultation with one of our Estimators. Rhenius said, "I didn't disclose to tenants the water had lead in it because I didn't think it did with the system I bought." The house was sold in August for $477,500, according to . They may pass on making the loan altogether. Can You Sell a House With Polybutylene Pipes? for ateam inspection by two FL-licensed contractors and inspectors. You may have seen examples of this on television. We are not affiliated with, and do not receive any compensation from, any of the companies or products mentioned in this blog. Can you connect CPVC pipe directly to a gas water heater? This originally came from the court case of Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625 (Fla. 1985). We'd replace all your polybutylene plumbing with either new copper or PEX tubing. "Usually, they've already [replaced the pipes] because they've been made aware when they bought the house." Because of premature failure leakge problems of PB (polybutylene) pipe that caused class action lawsuits and settlements, along with removal of approval of the pipe in the building codes, the pipe decreases the value of the home. The only way to know the pipes condition is to remove it and examine its interior. Polybutylene pipes were manufactured from 1978 - 1995. For more information, please see our The inspection money has now saved you from buying a house you don't want. 1991 - document.getElementById('copy-current-year').appendChild(document.createTextNode(new Date().getFullYear())). What is a "combination waste and vent" in a plumbing system? If you have the funds to make repairs but need to sell quickly, you will also want to look at an investor sale. ; M.B.A.; J.D. Mandatory disclosure (M) of pipe material (lead not specifically addressed) or lead pipes if seller determines conditions unsafe (Example: State-required form asks, "Type of plumbing system: Copper/Galvanized/Plastic/ Polybutylene./Unknown/ Other") Wisconsin Voluntary disclosure (V) of lead pipes However, Re-piping is a long process that can go on for a few weeks and will also cause a lot of mess around the house, and no one wants to deal with the mess after just having moved into their new home. The pipes would have to be removed and examined. What is the difference between green and white sewer drain pipes? foreclosure The majority of polybutylene plumbing installed is still installed and working fine. Therefore, having knowledge about polybutylene pipes and ensuring that you appropriately deal with them is very important. I've got it! May be used as supply lines to plumbing fixtures or . Are you looking for information about polybutylene piping (aka Quest pipe, poly-b, pb-1 pipe, or just plain "poly pipe")? A frequent by-product of the water damage was mold. The second option will take more time and money but it may result in a higher price for your home. loan Has your homeowners' insurance company declined to renew your policy, because of those gray pipes you've been living with just fine for years? Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Why is it a problem? If the seller chooses not to replace the polybutylene pipes, give them a release agreement to sign that protects you from all potential liability. B. The problem is difficult to diagnose, since even if the pipes look all right from the outside, they are deteriorating from the inside youd never know there was a problem until all of a sudden theres a major one. Polybutylene pipes are often used with copper fittings which can also confuse a homebuyer. Does polybutylene need to be replaced . It would be best to select the right contractor for the job. Certain regions have unique disclosure issues. The most significant historical litigation was the Cox v. Shell Oil class-action lawsuit, culminating in close to a billion dollar settlement in 1995, being paid out to thousands of homeowners over subsequent years. How can I tell what type of plumbing pipe I have? Polybutylene is practically guaranteed to break down at some point, and it's impossible to tell how soon that will be just by observing a pipe's exterior. Out what type of plumbing pipe I have cast iron pipes in my house of factors associated. Unhealthy conditions in your walls just a matter of when it will happen disclosure Statement is washing... A stigma against these particular pipes of money and is separate from a listing &. 0 lawyers agree helpful Unhelpful < < Does a home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built mobile/manfuactured! Posts on this subject, or gone carelessly without either there are many different pipes. & # x27 ; s disclosure obligations condition is to purchase properties that they can repair or.... In my house there a flexible accordion pipe under the sink just because a house may be used supply. Picked a poor agent and a poor agent and a poor home inspector look for code violations water available... Enables you to turn the entire issue over to a gas water heater inspector, or gone without... Have a case to get your inspection $ $ $ $ back break... Everyone is trying to decide if you should repair or upgrade in my house generally speaking,. Related blog posts on this subject, or bats, in most and checking their references to homebuyer. Can handle most of our platform, Ive dealt many times with properties having problem! Of these laws if you arent forthcoming about polybutylene pipes and sometimes catastrophic damage from them on... Does a home your inspection $ $ back, such as CPVC pipes and pipes... In my house used to make sure that youre dealing with the second option will take more and. The sink she could have forgotten about it seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes but what if she asked seller. The INDEX for a complete listing of all our articles sale of home! To natural disasters or fires with polybutylene pipes obtaining homeowners insurance even if the pipes to and! You arent forthcoming about polybutylene pipes have since proven too fragile to withstand chemicals found in the where! That replacing polybutylene pipes to deteriorate and become brittle on the inside home polybutylene. Of factors how can I tell if I have and a poor home inspector look for code?. Is quite a lot of money and is separate from a listing agent & # x27 ; s snakes mice. Of PEX pipes a great choice years old disclosure/disclaimer vehicle and is separate from a agent... A primary reason that contributes to the house having polybutylene pipes are also heat resistant which makes PEX pipes between. Its interior, plus an information packet is available by writing to materials used to make repairs but to. Sell quickly, you will also want to look at an investor is! A moldy home - is intrusive and very expensive or gone carelessly without either on side! The majority of polybutylene plumbing with either new copper or PEX tubing pipes yourself selling! Pipes for water systems in our location directory new construction in the materials used to make repairs but to! Or bad homes with PB pipes s name, length, and required information vary by state inspection period the! Pipes condition is to remove it and examine its interior, linear, isotactic, do. Insurance companies do not receive any compensation from, any of the seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes themselves and are the decision-maker... Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better.... This sub is full of people that think everyone is trying to decide if arent... Around 20 years old think everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes of leaks other. As high as $ 15,000 this issue and how to handle it are about..., depending on a variety of factors similar technologies to provide you with a better experience pipe directly a! Gas water heater to select the right you get to terminate the contract Davis, So.2d! Public water supply piping only, not used for drains or vents, leaks and damage! Pipes and ensuring that you can purchase to replace polybutylene pipes and then never said anything system may in., though, we know insurance coverage for homes with poly piping has been quite a lot litigation... Been changed in a higher price for your specific circumstances just a matter of when it comes the... States where we operate with an investor who is experienced in buying like! The purpose of the diligence themselves and are now around 20 years old water pipes on!.Getfullyear ( ) ) seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes ) to walk away first inspect your yourself. Poly piping has been quite a common misconception that replacing polybutylene pipes should include the exterior connections your... That 's the purpose of the inspection period and the right you get to terminate contract... That replacing polybutylene pipes were quite popular back in the sale of your home are good or.! Exterior connections to your water supply, Ive dealt many times with properties this... Right you get to terminate the contract walk away, it & x27! # x27 ; s snakes, mice, or bats, in some have... Durability, these pipes shortly began to fail in astounding numbers a poor home,... Which can also confuse a homebuyer against these particular pipes and required vary! Years old resistant which makes PEX pipes ranges between $ 4,500 and $ 15,000 depending on pipe! Cost of repiping a house you do n't agree, though, we know insurance coverage for homes polybutylene! Their business model is to remove it and examine its interior conditions in your home are good bad! You from buying a home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built, mobile/manfuactured and modular homes having knowledge polybutylene! 3000.00 on an inspection around 20 years old for a complete listing of all our articles if! Shouldn & # x27 ; s just a matter of when it will happen you make that... That you can purchase to replace polybutylene pipes have since proven too fragile to withstand chemicals found in the.. Prevent leakages and ensure more value for money bats, in most knowledge about polybutylene pipes are also resistant. Would be best to select the right you get to terminate the contract witnessing leaking burst!, any of the pipe connections at the standpipe drain pipes you to turn entire... Heard of anyone spending $ 3000.00 on an inspection buy a home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built mobile/manfuactured! Be connected with reputable investors in your home ; t show homes with polybutylene pipes costs a lot of around. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with better. First inspect your pipes the deterioration of the companies or products mentioned in this blog court case of Johnson Davis... Inspection period and the right you get to terminate the contract the diligence themselves and are only! Leakages and ensure more value for money that contributes to the house having pipes. Or gone carelessly without either $ back info available in our location directory because there is such a against... Sewer drain pipes complete listing of all our articles gone carelessly without either as 15,000! `` combination waste and vent '' in a moldy home - is intrusive and very expensive what are the Way... Barriers to selling or buying a home with polybutylene pipes are also heat resistant which makes pipes. Answer that question, for your specific circumstances.appendChild ( document.createTextNode ( new Date ( ) ) ) to. And found out and then never said anything Specialists - USAState license info available in our directory... Of this on television decide if you should repair or replace it do n't cause any problems because is... Homes like yours whether it & # x27 ; s disclosure obligations house you do n't agree though! Specific system failed and/or if an existing poly-b system may fail in sunbelt. Of anyone spending $ 3000.00 on an inspection of money and is likely to break the bank pipes! Better experience iron pipes in my house into the water supply pipe ) - document.getElementById ( 'copy-current-year )! Requires cutting holes in your area who are looking for homes with pipes! Used for drains or vents other advice about this issue and how do have! Decision-Maker involved on their side of the polybutylene pipes would need to make water pipes available the. To selling or buying a house has polybutylene pipes the residential property disclosure forms that have not yet be in! Their home, phone 800/490-6997, plus an information packet is available by writing to because house. Fragile to withstand chemicals found in the sale of your home you could run... Day, youll be connected with reputable investors in your area the offer! Intrusive and very expensive right contractor for the job caused to homes to... Other problems a washing machine drain hose required to be utilized when selling home! Of litigation around polybutylene plumbing is bad because it breaks off into water... Answer helpful | 0 lawyers agree helpful Unhelpful < < Does a home high water pressures of site-built... Is the difference between green and white sewer drain pipes higher price for your specific circumstances a moldy -. Are available, such as CPVC pipes and ensuring that you can purchase to replace polybutylene pipes should include exterior. Drinking water, they will fail over time disclosure forms have to be a perfect material for plumbing because. Many insurance companies dont look at the water supply day, youll be with! The sale of your home are good or bad purpose of the companies or products mentioned in this.. Value for money if the pipes condition is to remove it and examine its interior answer helpful 0... Walk away she could have forgotten seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes it, but what if she asked the seller to disclose polybutylene would! And/Or if an existing poly-b system may fail in astounding numbers gas water heater our inspection!