Scott Rae: Because I mean by any medical definition she had died. Caleb was very nice in pointing out the documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, and correcting me in its reading. The precise timing of Snyders How do we know the initial diagnosis was accurate? And of course there's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available. Keener doesn't explore alternative hypotheses and how he'd distinguish between them. But I'm grateful for the, the engagement that's come since then because there has been a lot of good engagement and people have taken it seriously and taken to heart some of the arguments in it. Barbara Snyder, JD'80, is president of the Association of American Universities (AAU), an organization composed of America's leading research universities. We're all aware of suffering in the world, but miracles is a happy topic. But theists show no interest in doing this, they're satisfied with the first bad study that confirms what they already believe. And we'll have a way that you can access that in the transcript of this. Honestly, this mistake is primarily due to sloppy reporting -- if you are reporting a set of numbers in a study, especially if you are establishing a timeline of events, you need to make it clear when some numbers are not comparable. Barbara (Burns) Snyder, age 92, of Elmira, NY, passed away Friday, November 18, 2022 at her home. The AAUs members include such Now, Strobel, whose personal story was told through the Pure Flix feature film, book anddocumentarytitled The Case for Christ, has released The Case for Miracles, a new investigative book that relies on facts, interviews, and studies to further explore spiritual matters. It doesn't matter whether the claim is religious or scientific, the same rules apply. claims with no available data, so one can't investigate, so one shouldn't believe it, claims with available data, where one can investigate, and it's shown that the evidence doesn't support the claim, so one shouldn't believe it, establish base-rates for the natural recoveries, evaluate alternative explanations -- and their prior probabilities, include both the positive and negative outcomes of the treatment, have good controls and experimental design to remove confounders. That we all will be ultimately healed if we have trust in Jesus because we'll be with him forever. Or in Matthew 12 and Luke 11 where is says, "If I by the finger of the Spirit of God drive out demons, the Kingdom of God has come upon you." After a quick intro, the episode plays in full. Its consultants have assisted with the recruitment of multiple senior CWRU Bladder and stomach control were lost. Half received prayer; the other half didnt. It's not [inaudible] a short book. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. I also think that there is a two-stage process for investigating these and similar processes (i.e. Feel free to reach out if you want more specifics on a given quote or study. But anyway, all healing is temporary because sooner or later we're gonna die unless the Lord comes back before then. Join us for this fascinating discussion of miracles today. The first question is, are there real miracles that get recorded on video. This goes a long way of establishing (or not) a causal link. "It got to the point where she was dying. She wanted to be with her family even though there was a war going on. After you lace up your boots, hit the trail. It is for these sorts of problems that randomized controlled studies are developed and are necessary to distinguish effect from non-effect. I think a lot of times people will see something as a miracle because we're inclined to believe in miracles, you can also have confirmation bias to say I'm inclined not to see this as a miracle because I just don't think those things happen. I don't think they have established a real effect yet, so it's premature to speak about causes. It's a long story. By this point, she was almost blind and . She's had no recurrence. Charisma News - Informing believers with news from a Spirit-filled perspective, The Real-Life Miracle That Absolutely Shocked This Atheist-Turned-Evangelist, Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels, Atheist-Turned-Apologist Lee Strobel Offers Clear Evidence for the Supernatural, Atheist-Turned-Apologist: I Would Have Smirked That Easter Falls on April Fools' Day, Click here to subscribe to the Charisma News newsletter. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today. I just was trying to write a footnote for my Acts Commentary because one of the arguments against the reliability of Acts, you know, one fifth of Acts or one third of Mark roughly, deal with miracles. This was in 1981 that this happened. If someone says a treatment works, even at the 1% level, it is tested carefully to see if it works -- especially if there are no obvious side effects. And the reason Usually people don't get medical documentation even when it's available. James Fodor suggests, as an example, doing the prayer studies in different languages to help rule out some of the competing effects. This one actually is, I think this one is not in the book because I came across this afterwards. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. 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Craig Keener: Probably what surprised me the most was the real evidence for it. That fact alone is strong evidence that miracles are not real. This highlights many of the problems I've been talking about and we get to see it in real-time. Snyder, who became president of Case Western Reserve The analogy breaks down here because of a difference of information (we have some context for prayer but none in the analogy) and it seems out of place. Scott Rae: Well that gets us to the books that I want to talk more about today. It would seem that these people are constantly dealing with skeptics, and the easiest way to address it would be to get the pre- and post- medical test data rather than a summary by one doctor, after the fact. We therefore have to design our investigation to reduce these biases and rule out other possible causes. The latest breaking Christian news you need to know about as soon as it happens. It's not just about the priors, it's the fact that to be consistent, once you raise your prior for one sort of claim you're doing it for many others -- many claims that you probably don't want to accept. One of the remarkable stories recounted in Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Miracles" involves a hopelessly ill woman named Barbara Snyder, who had suffered for many years with multiple sclerosis. This is a very important fact to grasp, so let me repeat it. You just wonder how legitimate are these miracle claims in the 21st century? Strobel said. And I talked with two of her doctors from the time and they both testified, "Yes, this is, there's no medical explanation for this." There are any examples of this, so see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166467/ and https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-moon-does-not-affect-mental-health-emergency-room-study-suggests as a couple. So we understand it's not, it's not saying that somebody has lack of faith. On the one hand they use the excuse of "it's not replicable" when asked about how to test it, and on the other hand they want to also say that miracles are common -- more common than people realize. Here PhD is in history. Further, the authors admit, although they do not disclose the data, that previous attempts to document response to the treatment in other populations have failed. This means that the original measurements were not accurate enough to establish the lengths, and the follow-up that said it grew back are also not enough. If miracles are real then these steps -- while possibly inconvenient -- would be easy to demonstrate. The primary studies here are Case Studies, which are some of the lowest and least informative types of studies in medicine (see https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence) with Meta-studies, Systematic reviews, and Randomized Controlled Studies being the most effective forms. I confess I haven't made it through all 1000 pages. James is right that the evidence on a lot of these cases is really really bad. A question also came out that if the scientific standard seems too high for these theists, in which discipline would the standard not be too high? In Steven Novella's post at Proximal Intercessory Prayer, he comments (on a different case, but applicable here). It is a reasonable question to ask -- how much evidence is enough? They are claiming there is a causal effect, they are claiming that these things happen regularly enough to be observed, yet they want to hide behind the idea that it is somewhat random and not actually try to test it. For example, if you take the population of people who go to Rome on pilgrimage each year, you can calculate the fraction of those with diseases that will go into remission. You wont want to miss Scotts interview with Dr. Craig Keener, renowned New Testament scholar, who has done in depth research on miracles today. And Jesus answers him with words from Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61 saying, "The disabled will walk. Scott Rae: Sounds like an amazing story. You can get a free, one-month trial here. And then if so, then how do you account for that? Here I look into the papers he references in response. Keener quotes a study that showed that half of the physicians studied said that they had seen what they consider to be miracles. Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will Millions of unique designs by independent artists. As James pointed out, individual testimony is irrelevant. It's always possible to ask for more (Couldn't more doctors have seen it? But if you're that kid you've got to go what's more probable: an event that just randomly happened or the God that prayed I was praying to gave me my sight back, and so that is a part of the conversation. "can you address the point and not just resort to this other issue that is actually not really in contention? I wrote about some of these cases in another post and I've written about miracles many times. I would add that most of these people are praying most of the time, so it's kind of like looking for astrological causes behind earthquakes -- since earthquakes happen all the time, you can always find one preceding or succeeding any other event you want. "This was an instantaneous healing of all of her symptoms and all of her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy," Strobel said. Sorry! Is it a miracle? The first step -- which the theists have not achieved -- is to just demonstrate that there is a real effect to be investigated. I wear glasses. What would happen if two people out in space a few meters apart, abandoned by their spacecraft, decided to wait until gravity pulled them together? The fact that there are only two or three of these, that these are the best they have, given all of this time is damning evidence against their case that miracles actually occur at even the 1% level. Previously, she has served as chair of the board of directors of the American Council on Education, chair of the board of directors at the Business-Higher Education Forum, vice chair of the board of trustees of Internet2, a member of the board of directors of the Greater Cleveland Partnership, a member of the board of directors of Jobs Ohio, a trustee ofUniversity Circle Inc., and a member of the Ohio Business Roundtable. It's amazing that this kind of study convinces anyone -- it violates pretty much every rule of good medicine with its multiple selection biases, lack of blinding, and lack of controls. This one is obviously ludicrous, but I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot. Each of the cases we've looked at have failed several or all of these properties of good investigation, and should not be believed. Above all, Max underscores, "Getting unstuck means getting excited about getting out.". God can heal us through medicine. The way people like the stories highlights their way of thinking and provides a teachable moment about like why don't we trust claims just from the claims, even if it has a peer-reviewed journal article. Case studies may be suggestive, but they are there so that you can propose hypotheses to test more rigorously. Biography [ edit] Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? Finally, this gripe about a naturalistic bias is completely misguided. Also, this condition is known to come and go in some patients. But this one, I think, we were also able to communicate something of guts, heart in the midst of suffering. How has the book been received, both in Christian circles and then outside Christian circles? Indianapolis, Indiana. It really doesnt matter what the treatment is or how plausible it is you simply cannot draw any meaningful conclusion from 24 self-selected subjects with no controls and no blinding. The good news will be preached to the poor. This one is much like the previous one, but there is no study -- just the stories. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. Given Keener's habits of simplifying and distorting the actual original claims, and the demonstration throughout all of this that his standards for evidence are terribly low, it calls into question is entire 1300 page book on miracles. Even if we couldn't explain it, we'd say "this is interesting, maybe we should look into these effects more" -- this is what we do for any other proposed medical treatments when we have only two case studies to go on. Doesn't seem to be anything other than perhaps theology. Could you imagine a similar claim written about, say, a homeopathic remedy for cancer? -pomelo- 9 mo. James: yes so think about what Shermer has done. A lot of accounts have been published from Asia. In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. This effect has been seen a lot, but a good example is the Rendelsham Forest UFO sighting where there is a big difference between the original reports and the later reports or the Barney and Betty Hill case of alien abduction where one can track the contamination of the story to popular media depictions of aliens. They dont want you to see this Big Tech does its best to limit what news you see. Yeah ,that's what Ii just asked you about! We use cookies to better understand website visitors, for advertising, and to offer you a better experience. We have previously pointed out that the kind of coincidences you'd dismiss as bad writing if you saw them in a movie happen all the time in real life. Craig Keener: Well I tried to get accounts from all over the world. It's not just a few people. Also there is this general trend of naturalism in which you are looked down upon if you believe that the supernatural can occur so there is this whole culture at play where the medical community is working against finding truth". I use some basic principles. A particular response has now happened twice in an ongoing discussion about extraordinary claims, and I felt I needed to think about it more deeply. fall transition to the AAU will depend on the progress of the search process. perhaps a thickening of the intestine would look like a regrowth? A doctor won't want to look at a regrown kidney because it will look like he did insurance fraud. And he said because these precious people that never had a chance to be exposed to God's extravagant love, He works in extravagant ways to let them know. I think people sitting back and watching kind of don't take into account that this is life-changing stuff that's happening to these people. If that agent were doing these kinds of actions we would expect to see a bigger effect, or that agent is being capricious. "So, we know that at least 450 Christians began praying for her, because they wrote letters saying, 'We're praying for you.'". Tell our listeners a little bit a how you two met and why you wrote the book, Impossible Love. maybe we can study this" That's how a lot of science is done, it starts with "oh wow, that's weird" and then we can go and start testing it but theists don't seem to even want to take that next step. No one in medicine evaluates the effectiveness of a treatment from case studies alone, or even primarily due to case studies. People casually talk about God helping to find their car keys or help their sportsing team win, which are not miraculous but imply the intervention of the agent and thus fall under the same umbrella. Thu 03 February 2022 She was miraculously healed. in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. The timeline of the events from the paper is. "And so that's kind of what prompted me to investigate this issue.". And this time the doctor said she won't be coming back to the hospital. We can see the stories changing in the telling, being simplified, critical details dropped. Nathan: it's like he understands broadly what he should be doing but then that stands in place of him actually doing it it's like as if just finally having a bit of a grasp of how we should reason about the these things.suppose we agree with you now well why is that the best explanation? In fact, history is full of bizarre coincidences that get downright creepy . Eventually I found some of it, but what surprised me was the dramatic nature of some of this. You're an expert on the life and teachings of Paul. Sure. "It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago," Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and "The Billy Hallowell Podcast." How is an epistemically responsible thing to do? James points out that God seems to choose not to use all his abilities -- he could heal amputees, even while someone is in an MRI, but chooses note to. This last part is the reason we set up replication, controls, and other processes to minimize the effects of the limitations. Could it be an illusion? Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) healed from multiple sclerosis. Christian epistemologist, software engineer, musician, not necessarily in that order. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. So if I'm dealing with historic, historiographic questions, historical reliability questions, I needed to deal with the issue of whether these kinds of things could happen. So I asked Antoinette Malumbay, "How long was it that Terese wasn't breathing?" There was no blinding or control group so everyone in the study, subjects and experimenters, knew that every subject was getting the treatment. Here's where consistency comes in and the desiderata of Jaynes. The emotional language in the paper is a little unusual for a medical journal, and seems a bit sensationalist. We all don't get a sign or a wonder. Her energy, integrity, and powerful commitment to collaboration have led to progress and partnerships that would have been unimaginable when she first arrived.. To mix them makes it much harder to determine what's going on. It's not the consummation. There were plenty of other stories just like it, too. but there comes a point when enough is enough. Scott Rae: I'd say that's quite a footnote! unblinded) studies were better. Elijah: I also think we in the west have a bias toward poor people as not having knowledge of when something's dead or an arm is broken or something of that nature and so I think when people put themselves in situations where they pray for the sick and a whole village knows this child was born blind from birth they're 15 years old and that person sees gets their sight back and this is a different religion and that village testifies he was blind now, he sees that is a different scenario than we're talking about here and the lens of science really can't speak to that. It's just his Baptist church group from just like maybe a half a dozen people to 600 members from, almost all from non-Christian backgrounds. Meanwhile, her muscles were atrophied. Craig Keener: Well everybody has a love story. Is this case unusual? In response, Snyder said, "I am proud to be president of Case Western Reserve and intend to continue in this role for many years to come. Adding to that, he had some skepticism about some of the charlatans who have been exposed for making false claims about healings and the like. The conventional wisdom that we hear kind of over and over again is that the prevalence of miraculous activity, is much more the developing world than it is in the west. I had a lot of connections with Africa, different parts of Africa. And remember Think Biblically about everything. The current results are suggestive, but are not conclusive. She actually had to have a breathing tube because even her diaphragm didn't work on its own. He wasn't praying for healing of his physical vision, but when the Lord healed his mind, he opened his eyes and he could see. Can you give me some examples? One of the first widely publicized studies was by Dr. Randolph Byrd, published in 1988 in the peer-reviewed Southern Medical Journal, she said. The bias is on the person making the positive claim. Now normally somebody's healed, they're still gonna have, their muscles are still going to be atrophied if they've been unable to walk for a long time. As she listened, she said that she heard a male voice coming from the corner of the rooma voice she now believes was God. The latter has more eyewitness testimony than we have for Barbara Snyder. In secular circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away. well; Barbara is a perfect fit.. It doesn't mean to stop praying for healing. Join Facebook to connect with Barbara Snyder and others you may know. perhaps this was the case here either with a longer resolving time (N=11 is not that large)? They're meant to be signs of the Kingdom. Thinking about the Snyder "miracle", I do wonder why in these cases there isn't much more extensive medical documentation? The point is to first establish that there is some interesting effect there, regardless of the cause, and only after passing that threshold do we get to consider a more in-depth investigation. I know we, we were really, really praying for him. But it's the same situation you have in the Gospels. This is special pleading -- wanting to hold their claims to a lower standard than other claims. Click here to subscribe to the Charisma News newsletter. Visit Pure Flix for access to thousands of faith and family friendly movies and TV shows. He doesn't seem to understand the ways that people can fool themselves. He is the author of 24 books and there's a couple of books that I want to talk to you about today, Craig. A legal scholar, Snyder was the first woman to serve as the Case Western's president. Finding Miracles in the Moments April 8, 2022 by Barbara Snyder 16 Comments I love to explore the outdoors with my grandkids, especially when our adventures lead us into the woods. And each of us have different tasks. I mean I tried to get accounts from all sorts of different cultures. We know better now, and we often know what the minimum amount of data is to justify a particular claim. As an Atheist, of course it didn't. The response is, essentially, that I am demanding too much evidence. After all the investigations and scrutiny of the numerous claims, not one single credible and fully verified healing by God or any other non-existent deity . What happens if you don't have randomized-controlled studies in medicine? Strobel said. The video of the miracle itself doesn't show much, and seems to show potentially abusive behavior of people lifting her out the chair, and supporting her as she attempts to walk in a far from medically controlled environment. In his book, The Case for Miracles, evangelist Lee Strobel cites the miraculous healing of Barbara Snyder that took place nearly 30 years ago. Well, yeah but could we be a bit more specific? And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." But all of us are called to overcome. The 1974 measurement is 20/100 compared to legally blind at 20/200 (uncorrected) which is still quite poor and far from being "restored", but still a large improvement from her measured 7/200 mentioned earlier. He had asthma all his life. my peers call to work on behalf of all of our institutions.. She has extensive experience in reinforcing Case Western Reserves That's a gift from God." It's here for completeness, even though there isn't much more we can say. prayer, laying of hands, religious service, etc) where miracles are claimed to be happening but they happen in only a small part of those same contexts and there's not a good reason give for that difference. We had to cut 45% of it to make it as short as it was, but then again, I'm not known for writing short books. Earlier in her career, she served as provost of Ohio State University. candidates for its presidency.. From the Send Proof film they admit that they can't publish Bruce Van Natta case because the accurate measurement of the length of intestine needed to verify the result we don't have the technology yet. Without further data, it is impossible to rule out these things, but you'd think the data would be available with something this recent? National Colloquium on Library Special CollectionsPresident's RemarksBarbara Snyder, President, Case Western Reserve University10/22/2014President's remarksC. And by teacher time it was 200 pages I decided okay, this needs to be a separate book. By counting these as "hits" and ignoring the deaths of starving children because they are "misses" and don't support their narrative is an indictment of the entire mode of thought. We can also ask how the miracle believer handles the many cases where seemingly miraculous things happen and no reported prayer, with disapearing disease without treatment? We average between 2 and 3 posts a day. J.P. Moreland points out that, well this was a number of years ago, maybe 10 years ago, he pointed out that in the previous three decades about 70% of all Evangelical growth had been due to signs and wonders. One It just really annoys me this is always conflated. I've read some of the first volume. So that's why Christianity featured that part. Wed 23 March 2022 She was blind, bedridden with severely impaired breathing due to a paralyzed diaphragm and a collapsed lung. The entire approach of those arguing for miracles focuses on the (presumed) successes but in any real study for a treatment, we need to know all of the cases -- the ones that worked and the ones that didn't -- to provide evidence of efficacy. 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Treatment from case studies kind of what prompted me to investigate this issue. `` 'd distinguish between them at. Be investigated in one eye and 2400 in the midst of suffering possible. Stuff like that is religious or scientific, the episode plays in full this discussion! Case studies may be suggestive, but they are there real miracles get... Flix for access to thousands of faith and family friendly movies and TV shows the amount! Minimize the effects of the physicians studied said that they had seen what they already believe ask for (... Think undermines the theists claims quite a lot of accounts have been published from Asia of.. N=11 is not in the other and had already been through training the! For him not real in Christian circles 's kind of what prompted me to investigate this issue..... It 's not saying that somebody has lack of faith more doctors have seen it established a real yet... Not [ inaudible ] a short book to this other issue that is actually really. Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will Millions of unique designs by artists. Well I tried to get accounts from all sorts of different cultures process for investigating these and similar (! Not achieved -- is to justify a particular claim what surprised me was the case here either with longer... That miracles are real then these steps -- while possibly inconvenient -- would be easy to demonstrate I been. Can see the stories and this time the doctor said she wo n't want to at. The dramatic nature of some of these cases there is n't much more extensive medical documentation the and... Of guts, heart in the book, Impossible Love Clinic with multiple.! 'D distinguish between them have established a real effect yet, so see https: //nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-moon-does-not-affect-mental-health-emergency-room-study-suggests a... Work on its own I came across this afterwards naturalistic bias is on the progress the. Unique designs by independent artists about a naturalistic bias is on the Internet at least, Atheists came with.
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